To ice:

Yeah, that can be true vs. 4%ers. A lot depends on the overall situation, though.

I'll usually flat call if everyone has folded between me and the raiser. If there are more in, I'll re-raise.

In live games particularly, though, I see a lot of these guys raise maybe QQ, call the re-raise and still stack off with their overpair--and it's much easier for them to stack off in a re-raised pot.

Just as an experiment, let's say (assuming a good tight player) in a 1/2 game, some hand raises to 8 (200 in stack depth), you immediately re-raise to maybe 24. They obviously call with JJ/QQ and will probably push KK. They now fold AK.

So, your EV vs. KK is something like 120 (.8*200 - .2*200).

Vs. AK your EV is just 11 let's say (8 + BB + SB), although someone else may also wake up with a big hand.

Vs. JJ-QQ you win 27 85% of the time. On the other 15% (they set), you lose maybe 100 (?), depending on how they play it. So, that's an EV of something like 22-15 = 7.

Total EV is then (120*6 + 7*12 + 11*8)/26 = (720 + 84 +88)/26 = 892/26 = 34 or so. What's really creating the winnings is the big win vs. KK. On everything else, you obviously make much less than with flat call.

With the flat call, a vaguely complete calculation would be rather tedious. You allow others in (who may beat you but who also put in extra money) and you pick up the CB from the raiser, unless he beats you. I think this is reasonable unless you figure on lots of callers. But I do think it's going to be hard to average 34 here.

I just note that the advantage of re-raising AA here stems from the fact that a raiser this tight has KK very often and is probably going to push PF.

You know, honestly, under the assumptions you're making about re-raising, I think the thing to do is be more inclined to re-raise AK. If they're really playing JJ for set value at that point, I think that's more the way to go rather than failing to re-raise AA. And I still don't think re-raising KK is all that great. I much prefer an AK re-raise to a KK re-raise here really--since it reduces the AA/KK frequency for them and also gives you a hand that's fairly easy to get away from.

Also, I think they'll still lose a good part of stack with JJ or QQ as overpair even after a re-raise unless they really think of you as a rock who MUST have AA (in which case you should be re-raising AK).

to bk:

One thing I've noticed on high stakes poker (but didn't put in my original post) is an inclination to re-raise virtually any 2 (usually suited junk) against opponents perceived as weak. One reason I didn't put it in is that I think it's MUCH easier to do live (particularly with the reading skills of some of those guys) than online. And online I'm really not sure about it.

Anyhow, the hands you mention are mostly unacceptable for calling a raise in my opinion (except 77+). I'm somewhat inclined to say that if you're willing to go with KTo or Q8s, you may actually be BETTER off going with 52s. The ones with big cards are more likely to leave doubt in your own mind whether you're ahead or behind (I've had that happen and made a bad laydown with Q8s once) whereas with 52s you have big time deception going in a few situations and don't get yourself into trouble.

Bottom line: I don't have any problem re-raising any 2 vs. a very loose raiser, but you do have to really keep your eye on the rest of the table and need to be very solid in your reads as to what's going on after the flop if they call.

Also, vs. an 18% raiser, I really don't think KJo is a bad call with position.

The thing is, with Q8s, I know that I'm not doing well with an 8 high flop and get resistance, or Q high. So if I get raised, or CR'd, then I'm not put to a tough decision because I know that my hand is probably crap vs their range. The value in using something like Q8s vs 52s is that I find that there ARE hands where I'm going to hit better than them, but be able to extract value, but you can't do that with 52s.

For example, they open MP, I 3b OTB with Q8s, they call.

Flop Q74r, they'll ch/call with JJ-88, 87s, 65, etc. However, a hand like 43s isn't getting value from them calling with those ranges because they're beating me, and I HAVE to bluff them off to win...whereas with Q8s, I can get value because I have showdown value: 43s doesn't have showdown value on that board.

So, I think there are more ways to create value with Q8s than 54s.

And, actually...I prefer to NOT 3b KTo vs the loose raiser. I prefer to call with those hands and play poker...I tend to only 3b them with my really big hands because they make so many mistakes PF in 3b pots and tend to make their posflop mistakes by not folding when they should. Since you're not going to hit very much with Q8s, and they're not going to ch/fold as much as you want in order to make the play profitable, we should instead call with the medium strength hands that we can play well postflop - but 3b only our very good hands and take them to utter value town and exploit their inability to fold.

Their inability to fold is FED by us semibluffing and them calling down with any piece (which happens to beat our range)...it's EXPLOITED by tightening up our range and going to value town.