This is on Stars. The BB was a superfish, but CO seemed a somewhat competant multi-tabler so far. I figure I have no backup and there's a good chance I'm up against the nuts with more of a redraw than I do.

$0.1/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at

Stacks:
UTG ($13.95)
UTG+1 ($31.75)
CO ($32.30)
BTN ($24.90)
Hero ($49.45)
BB ($6.10)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is SB [4c][Qs][8c]
2 folds, CO calls $0.25 ($32.05), BTN calls $0.25 ($24.65), Hero calls $0.15 ($49.20), BB raises to $1 ($4.85), CO calls $0.75 ($31.30), BTN calls $0.75 ($23.90), Hero calls $0.75 ($48.45)

Flop: [Jh][9h] ($4, 4 players)
Hero bets $2.75 ($45.70), BB calls $2.75 ($2.35), CO raises to $14.8 ($16.50), 1 fold, Hero folds ($45.70), BB goes all-in $2.35 ($0.00)

So, is it common to fold the nuts in this situation?

Turned out to be the right move. Amazing that you could flop the nuts and have less equity than you did preflop.

$0.1/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at

Stacks:
UTG ($13.95)
UTG+1 ($31.75)
CO ($32.30)
BTN ($24.90)
Hero ($49.45)
BB ($6.10)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is SB [4c][Qs][8c]
2 folds, CO calls $0.25 ($32.05), BTN calls $0.25 ($24.65), Hero calls $0.15 ($49.20), BB raises to $1 ($4.85), CO calls $0.75 ($31.30), BTN calls $0.75 ($23.90), Hero calls $0.75 ($48.45)
44.90% (EV = $0.80)
17.70% (EV = -$0.29)
37.50% (EV = $0.50)

Flop: [Jh][9h] ($4, 4 players)
Hero bets $2.75 ($45.70), BB calls $2.75 ($2.35), CO raises to $14.8 ($16.50), 1 fold, Hero folds ($45.70), BB goes all-in $2.35 ($0.00)
53.80% (EV = -$5.68)
14.10% (EV = -$0.36)
32.10% (EV = $0.34)

Turn: ($16.95, 2 players)
80.00% (EV = $13.56)
20.00% (EV = $3.39)

River: ($16.95, 2 players)
0.00% (EV = $0.00)
100.00% (EV = $16.95)

Final Pot: $16.95
CO shows: [9d][Tc][9c]
BB shows: [Qh][2c][Kc]

CO wins $9.7 ( lost -$6.1 )
BB wins $16.15 ( won +$10.05 )
BTN lost -$1.00
Hero lost -$3.75

Hi Again

What I didn't say above and probably should have is good fold.

I wanted to come back to the starting hand. I know it's kind of annoying to post asking about a flop decision and have people talk about what you did pre-flop but this hand really highlights a problem with playing loose starting hands and talking about it might help.

What I think is worth reflecting on is that you've called pre-flop, then called a raise and then hit the nuts on the flop. You've hit the nuts on the flop and your hand still isn't good enough to put your stack behind.

So. To have a hand worth playing, you need to hit what? J 9 in a rainbow flop or QQQ or QQT. Top 2 pair maybe, but even then you are going to have difficulty knowing where you stand if the chips start flying.

I'm guessing that you're well aware that this is a hand without too much going for it and that pot odds drew you into calling from the small blind. Looking at the hand, it has sort of marginal high card strength, a 3 card run with 2 gaps and a dangling 4 that is suited to the 8.

Hot and cold, your hand just about a match for 4 random cards. When the pot gets raised, even by a muppet, your hand starts to look even worse.

Here are some things you should consider:

Raises usually mean high card strength, so the other hands in there are likely to have you dominated.

The 3 cards that do work together in your hand, barely work together meaning that in a raised pot you are highly likely to end up dominated by a more coordinated hand.

Your 8 high flush draw is going to be easily dominated.

Calling into a limped pot with this average hand is not a great idea. Calling into a raised pot with a trash hand, out of position is just financial suicide.

I only bother to mention this, because I think the way the flop played out highlights why you would have made more money by folding pre-flop. You've hit the nuts and been reduced to bet / fold as a line.

The way that you choose to play a hand needs to have an internal logic that runs through from street to street. All your starting hand has in its favour is that weak little 3 card run with the 2 gaps. Filling the 2 gaps is a miracle flop and you end up having to play it as a marginal holding. There isn't really any way that this hand can play out with a consistent internal logic. It just doesn't make any sense to play a starting hand that can hit a near ideal flop and leave you in trouble.

It's kind of similar to why you shouldn't play small pair hands.

Anyway. I'd be interested to hear what anyone else thinks and whether anyone thinks there is a case for playing this kind of hand. I know it's common for people to take the opinion that Omaha is a post flop game so I think this is worth discussing. I think there are many, many starting hands that make post flop almost impossible and avoiding them is one of the easiest ways to make money in this game.[/list]

i agree to fold preflop. its an iffy complete in the sb even with the odds you are getting because its unlikely you will hit a hand good enough to hold up against so many people and you got to do it oop. def fold to the raise.

also, in this position, i prefer a check call but if you bet and a compentent player raises here (there are a few of them down at those levels) i would fold. I doubt he's raising a lower straight and the only time a good player will raise on a made straight board without the nuts in this situation is when he has a big combo hand like set and fd, fd and str draw, ect. you aren't in good shape against those either so fold is fine.

chips,

I def think not folding the nut straight ever at this level is a leak. if you have no redraws, you have made your best hand and anytime someone else makes there hand, you are drawing dead. I know there are a bunch of jokers down at these levels but there are some good players and some people that won't just spew chips into the pot with two pair on these boards despite being bad overall players. sure there are some people you should probably never fold it to because they are that stupid but you got to assess the situation and sometimes its a fold.

dup post.

And just to prove that folding the nuts against counter-aggression isn't a habit......

$0.1/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
6 players
Converted at

Stacks:
UTG ($30.80)
Hero ($32.35)
CO ($17.25)
BTN ($17.50)
SB ($38.05)
BB ($25.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 [Ac][7d][7c]
1 fold, Hero calls $0.25 ($32.10), CO calls $0.25 ($17.00), BTN calls $0.25 ($17.25), SB calls $0.15 ($37.80), BB checks ($24.75)
33.80% (EV = $0.17)
66.20% (EV = $0.58)

Flop: [4c][8d] ($1.25, 5 players)
SB checks ($37.80), BB checks ($24.75), Hero bets $1 ($31.10), 1 fold, BTN calls $1 ($16.25), SB calls $1 ($36.80), BB raises to $6.2 ($18.55), Hero raises to $21.8 ($9.30), BTN folds ($16.25), SB folds ($36.80), BB goes all-in $24.75 ($0.00), Hero calls $2.95 ($7.35)
49.50% (EV = $0.37)
50.50% (EV = $1.89)

Turn: ($52.75, 2 players)
61.30% (EV = $31.11)
38.80% (EV = $20.47)

River: ($52.75, 2 players)
50.00% (EV = $25.38)
50.00% (EV = $26.38)

Final Pot: $52.75
BB shows: [Kd][7h][2h]
Hero shows: [Ac][7d][7c]

BB wins $25.1 ( won +$0.1 )
Hero wins $25.05 ( won +$0.050000000000001 )
SB lost -$1.25
CO lost -$0.25
BTN lost -$1.25

------------

$0.1/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
5 players
Converted at

Stacks:
UTG ($52.50)
Hero ($23.10)
BTN ($26.20)
SB ($28.30)
BB ($23.05)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is CO [7d][Tc][3c]
UTG calls $0.25 ($52.25), Hero raises to $1 ($22.10), 1 fold, SB calls $0.9 ($27.30), 1 fold, UTG calls $0.75 ($51.50)
60.60% (EV = $0.97)
39.40% (EV = $0.28)

Flop: [Jd][Qd] ($3.25, 3 players)
SB bets $3.1 ($24.20), UTG calls $3.1 ($48.40), Hero raises to $15.5 ($6.60), SB goes all-in $27.3 ($0.00), UTG folds ($48.40), Hero goes all-in $6.6 ($0.00)
35.20% (EV = -$8.77)
64.80% (EV = $8.65)

Turn: ($50.55, 2 players)
43.80% (EV = $23.06)
56.20% (EV = $26.67)

River: ($50.55, 2 players)
50.00% (EV = $26.33)
50.00% (EV = $23.73)

Final Pot: $50.55
SB shows: [As][Td][9h]
Hero shows: [7d][Tc][3c]

SB wins $29.5 ( won +$1.2 )
Hero wins $24.25 ( won +$1.15 )
UTG lost -$4.10

i fold hand one to the cr to your bet and multiple calls, his hand screams of the same straight and you have no redraws.

hand 2, i play the same due to your flush draw because a lot of people don't fold the nuts with no redraw *cough*cough*

Lol. First time I read this I looked at hand 2 and thought you were the one without the redraw and was going to totally contradict myseld by saying fold. Your opponent screwed the pooch on that hand.

I think I play hand 1 as you did. Although I may call the cr rather than raise depending.

Briachek is right though. With 2 callers in between, in screams straight and u have no redraw. Rightly or wrongly, I simply won't give him credit for having a redraw here. If there was 2 to a flush it would be different.