First of all, even though I am a pinko commie* who hates America/Freedom, I'm for people in the US being allowed to buy guns. So this is not a "Ban guns!" thread. I do have two points I would like to discuss though.

Why allow guns?

The by far most common argument is of course that the 2:nd amendment allows this freedom and that the constitution is what America/Freedom/Goodness is all about.

Personally, I don't buy this for two reasons. Number one is that any constitution should be a living document, and the US one is. That's what the *amendments* is about. The bill of rights (the first ten amendments) was passed in the 1790's (iirc) and there was some amendment introduced just a decade or so ago. Basically it can be changed/improved to reflect the views of the now living people. Thank god.

So basically, it's not a valid argument in any way to say that something should be forever because it says so in the constitution. Bogus argument, but very common.

The second reason stated is that people need guns to protect themself in case the government becomes tyrannical (or the US is invaded I guess). This is basically what the constitution says. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

That argument I do buy. It's not the same to say "Because it says so in X" as to say "In X it says this, which I agree with and makes sense".

However, I do think this is absolutely not the reason people nowadays want to have guns. I think it comes way down on the list after:
- It makes you feel safe (it doesn't actually "make" you safe, but I would say that feeling safe in this case is more important than being safe").
- It's fucking cool!! (Seriously, guns are cool, you can not deny this).
- It's fun !! (Once again, can't argue this. Shooting stuff is hella fun).
- It's freedom!! (Being allowed to do things is indeed freedom, of course you may infringe on someone elses freedom not to have to live in fear because of gun proliferation, or his/her freedom not to get shot).
It's culture!! (No doubt, guns is a big part of american culture).

Now those five reasons I can accept (in the context of the US, I would not accept them in Sweden). But I still think the first argument is bullshit. You know, the one about protecting yourself from opression. And this will lead to the second part. Before we get there, let me explain why I think the constitutional reason to own guns is bullshit:

If the US or any other government decides to "opress" you, your Beretta, S&W or even Desert Eagle will not help you!! Dude, the army got fucking assault rifles, sniper rifles and TANKS!! Are you telling me that when a APC rolls up your lawn and a squad of grunts jump out and say "You better start sucking our dicks, punk, 'cos we've just taken over the White House", you're gonna defend yourself with a god damn pistol!? Yeah, how about we try a scenario where you start with a USP, alone, vs 5 CT's with colts and full kevlar. See how that works out for you*. So...

What sort of guns?
IF you believe, or at least claim, that the reasons guns should be allowed is to protect you from potential opression, from your government or someone elses, then you need adequate tools for the job. Sure, in the 17:th century, a rifle was pretty bad-ass, but nowadays that's like bringing a knife to a gun fight if you know what I mean.

Assuming you're going to defend yourself against opression from a military force, you're going to need stuff like this:


To take our soldiers.



For tanks and armored vehicles.



For helicopters.


Frankly, why not just allow people to buy these ones so they stand a fighting chance:




I do NOT however think that people should be allowed to buy military aircraft or naval vessels, because frankly you can't be opressed in the air or at sea if you just stay away from those areas. A tank however makes sense, at least to me.


So IF you believe that you should be allowed to have guns to defend yourself against opression, where do you draw the line and why?




Now, if you're the sort who thinks you should be allowed to have guns for other reasons, such as safety, recreation etc. Once again, where do you draw the line and why (this will probably seem a bit more realistic to people)?

Obviously pistols, revolvers and rifles are OK. But what about...





Is automatic ok or just semi-automatic? If so, why?









It will be interesting to learn how people reason around this.






* I'm actually not, but my mother is.
** This only makes sense if you have played CS