Red, you attitude is unrealistic, like if guns are gone there will be peace. People have always found ways to kill each other and were pretty good at it long before guns came around. Starvation has been a great tool for killing off masses of unwanted people. People do kill people. Someone has to make a concious decision to use a gun to kill. The nice thing about guns is that they can be a great equalizer. No other tool of self defense will get an old woman a chance to defend herself like a gun will.

Guns are used to protect homes, catch criminals and stop crimes in action. And they do exist and you cannot wish them away. Hating them nothing but deprive you or a useful tool.

Beavis, I think you misunderstood my post a little. I completely agree that people are scum that will find new and devious ways to kill eachother. That is partly in our nature. I also agree that guns can be used to protect. I never said that peace has anything to do with guns and I am not saying that had there been no guns there would be no killing.

However, my point is about the GUN(s), not about the people using guns.
The purpose of the gun is to kill. It is not to disable, render imobile or prevent something. It is to kill or severely wound, possibly kill.

Plz, trust me when I say that this:
is not a defensive tool..

if there werent guns then might would always make right. they have been an important part of the development of civilization. I will dutifully down play the "evil" for you k3nt.

come on, lets not derail this into an Iraq thread.

And yes, Bremmer f'd a lot of things up and is the root of many of the problems we have had since the initial invasion (from what I know).

I think this is just one of those issues where the 'correct' answer depends on local conditions.

In the UK there is no history of anyone outside the military and some farmers having guns. Hunting for sport was done on horseback with packs of dogs and even the police were (and largely still are) unarmed. There is obviously no equivalent to the constitutional right to arms.

As a result I don't think I know a single person who owns a gun.

As a fortunate result, despite the fact that we are a very crowded place (about 1/5th of the entire US population on an island where you can drive coast to coast in 2 hours), homicide rates are low (and gun deaths in particular are rare).

Just about every single gun death in the UK is a national news item (regional front page for sure) and in a bad year we get just over 100 of them. The US gets what, 30,000?

Accidental gun deaths in the US run at about 1000/year I think. That means more people (even adjusted for relative population) kill themselves accidentally with guns in the US than all the people who die to guns in the UK.

In the US death by gun is the 2nd most likely way for 24-35 yr olds to die (running about 1% behind motor vehicles).



Anyone who compares the risk of guns to knives is living in cloudcuckooland...
The UK banned handguns after a nutter with a gun went postal in a kids school in Dunblane and killed 13 kids. A few years down the line another nutter went postal in a a nursery in London with a Machete and killed nobody (the girl teacher managed to restrain him at the cost of some pretty nasty injuries).
We have had no high school massacres in the UK by pissed off students because they don't have access to guns. Not because we don't have angry/unbalanced students...

Our knife crime statistics are no worse (in fact I think a little better per capita) than the USA's.

The prison sentences for owning handguns are fairly harsh (I think recommended tariff is 5 years). Of course some criminals do have guns, but as can be seen from the homicide statistics their actual use is limited.

So if you can take guns out of society and make them just unaccptable generally then you do massively reduce violent deaths.

BUT I think in the States that isn't really an answer. There are so many guns and their use is not just widely tolerated but actively supported by many that 'arm everyone and not just the criminals' may well be the appropriate response in some areas

It's too late to end the States' love affair with the gun..you guys just have to find the best way to live with it now..

I think Ex makes an excellent point when he says "I think this is just one of those issues where the 'correct' answer depends on local conditions."

I'm waay to tired to write this, but my point boils down to: if everyone knew about them, there would be a ton less problems with them.

Coming from somewhere where guns are a necessity, thats how it works. Guns are tools. Everyone knows about them, how to use them, and how not to use them. There is no stigma or fear attached to them.

Red, there is a disconnect between the act and the means of implementation. There is a distinction between meth and wanting to smoke meth. I think the point ED and others are trying to make is that you cannot blame one on the other.

Second, your rhetoric indicates that you believe that guns are used SOLELY for killing other people. You make it sound as if guns have no purpose besides killing people. To me, as someone whose life would be more difficult without guns, this falls somewhere between "ignorant about other paths of life" and "believes that they are always right about everything, no matter what someone else presents to them, and cannot be wrong in this or any other reality".

Guns are an integral part of my life and in preserving things that are very important to me. To misconstrue that or lump me in with the idiotic masses of murderous morons is borderline offensive.