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Fancy Play Syndrome?

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Fancy Play Syndrome?

Postby Kalle » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:26 pm

Here is a hand I played tonight at Pokerstars. I would like some comments because sometimes I think I am a better player than I know I am and I make too many fancy plays.

$2/4. I’m in cutoff with [6d][6s]. Folded to the player to my right who raises to $12. The raiser sat down at the table 15-20 hands earlier but it was his third or fourth preflop raise: I didn’t put him on a big pair. He had $261.70 and I had him covered. I think that I can call raises with small pairs without implied odds if I am in position (I’m not sure this is a good play) (anyone folds this). I call and the players behind me fold.

Flop $30
[9d][3c][8d]

Opponent bets $20 and I call. I know that I should fold or raise if I think I have the best hand but a lot of players will call with overcards and some players will only call with a big pair. I usually call or fold with a small pair on a ragged flop (stupid play?).

Turn $70
[9d][3c][8d][Tc]

The board is now very coordinated. Two flush draws and a possible straight (draw). Opponent bets $40. This looks weak and I still think I have the best hand so I raise to $120 trying to represent something (looking back the only thing that made me think I had the best hand was that there were no face cards and I don’t think he would fold an overpair if I was wrong. If he goes all in here I fold (he has $110 left if he calls)).
He calls.

River $310
[9d][3c][8d][Tc][7s]

Great I have a straight but now he goes all in for $110. It looks like JJ. Call? Thoughts on my play (and opponent's)?
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Postby Bob314 » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:47 pm

You actually had implied odds to call there preflop. It was 12 to you and you could win over 20 times that should you take his stack (following Iceman's rule of minimum 10x).

I'd actually fold to the 2/3 pot bet on the flop. If you want to play raise it if you are called shut down. With a board that coordinated I don't think an overpair would try and slowplay to trap you. If an overpair called the flop they are definitely leading into you on the turn and you can get away from your hand.

I don't see how you can call this river bet. I wouldn't be able to anyways.
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Postby iceman5 » Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:48 pm

You said that you can call preflop without implied odds if you are in position. You HAVE implied odds here if you hit your set so yes, your call is correct. I would fold the flop though. I might raise the flop now and then , but only against specific opponents. Most cases its a fold, but I would never flat call there.

Also, I dont think a $40 bet into the $70 pot at the turn looks weak. It looks to me like he wants you to call because he has a high pair

At the river its $110 to you with a pot of $420. Your getting 4-1 odds on your call. Only JJ or maybe [Ad][Jd] beats you. I would call here. You only need to win one time in 4 to make it correct.
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Postby HappyBenny » Sat Jan 15, 2005 4:52 am

I'd fold this one. The way you represented your hand via your betting was that you were on the draw. He bet all-in even though a major draw card came up. He has you.
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Postby Rhound50 » Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:38 am

I agree with Iceman here,you have to call the river now, you pretty muhc pot commited yourself with the play on the turn. You are not getting odds to make this call even with the sucker straight. The question here is how you got yourself into this position. The turn play is what killed you here. By just calling you are building a pot and you dont want to build a pot here, you hand stands very little chance of improving, you want to take the pot down on the flop or get out of the way. You call preflop was fine you are getting good enough implied odds to make this call.
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Postby kennyg » Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:55 am

I've just starting playing full time...and more of this experience I realize that these are situations you need to avoid to become a true winning player.

The preflop call is fine..if you trip, you can get his stack.

The flop is where your problem is. True, he may have two overs like AK or AQ, but your hand and situation is mediocre at best. You either need to make a big raise to try and take it right there (and if he calls or reraises, you check/fold) or you just need to fold outright. I like option number two better.

As for the river...you are probably beaten. But 1/4 odds and the fact that the read on your player is one who likes to bet..well..you have to call.
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Postby Kalle » Sun Jan 16, 2005 10:03 am

Thanks for the replies. Very helpful. One of my biggest leaks is that I sometimes play big pots with weak hands because I want to outplay my opponents. I have to stop doing that.
Another big leak is that I can’t fold a good hand when I know the other player has a better hand. How many players bet this river without a jack? Definitely less than 1 out of 5 I think. Did I fold then? No. I called. He had [Ac][Jc].

I have some more questions:
The first one is complicated: You write that I have implied odds to call before the flop. But if his standard raising hands in this position only are AA-TT and AK-AJ, he will only have AA-TT 38 % of the times (approximately 4 times out of 10). And when he has AK-AJ and I flop a set he will only flop a pair 1 times out of 4 (and pay me off). He will not pay me off with unimproved AK-AJ, he will not pay me off with QQ if the flop is A86 etc. A lot of times he will not pay me of when I flop a set. I think my question is... When I call a raise with a pocket pair what should I think of besides my opponent’s stack size? (Stupid question, can’t really be answered easily, but just some thoughts. I could just fold preflop and then there wouldn’t be a problem)

A more specific question: You write that if I want to play my hand on the flop (which you don’t recommend) I need to make a big raise. How big? To $60 (2x minimum raise)? $80? (I know this is a big “it depends” but if I raise here I usually raise minimum and then they call with overards (this is actually good for me isn’t it?) and I don’t know where I stand)

How do you think my opponent played his hand (postflop)? I’m asking because I would have played it the same way.
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Postby HappyBenny » Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:49 pm

You don't have to worry about his stack size in this case. Sometimes you have to worry about it if the bets are going to cap someone.

You look at the board and the player's bet preflop and on the flop. First, I read him on AK, AQ, AJ, A10, KQ, KJ or QJ on the flop - he's trying to take the pot down, but he does have two overcards or a flush draw. But I'm not certain (maybe he's holding pocket pair... or J10 or something). So on the flop, he goes 20, I bet 30 more to him. If I'm not willing to do that, I fold.
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