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River call?

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River call?

Postby Bob314 » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:46 pm

$100 max (.5/1 blinds) on Full Tilt.

I'm in 4th position (3 off the button) and it folds to me. I hold A[d]J[d]. I just raised the last hand and dominoed the table preflop. I prefer to come in for a raise regardless of the fact that I raised it last hand. I made it $4 to go each time. Only the CO calls.

Pot: 9.50
Flop: 10[h]5[d]3[d]

I'm up and decide to run a continuation bet/semi bluff and bet half the pot, $5. CO calls.

Pot: $19.50
Turn: 10[h]5[d]3[d]J[h]

TPTK with the nut flush draw! Sweet! I bet $12 into the pot, just a little less than a 2/3 pot bet. Any straight draw is runner runner and any flush draw is drawing dead to my draw so I don't necessarily want them to go away...CO calls again.

Pot: $45.50
River: 10[h]5[d]3[d]J[h]K[s]

What is my action on the river? My opponent called my preflop raise, called my flop bet, called my turn bet, and my draw to the nuts missed but I still have a semi-strong holding. I decided to check and call, but then my opponent bets the full pot on the river! I think a set raises me sooner, but I don't really know what he could have because he has played the hand so passively? Is he betting a missed flush draw? It seems like too big a bet for that but a lot of the induced bluffs you guys talk about they actually overbet the pot when they go for it...thoughts/recommendations? Should I have lead with a half pot bet on the river and folded if he comes over the top huge?

Results in white below:
I called and he turned over K-K for top set. What the crap? He never came over the top of me once! I wasn't sure about the call, but everyone has been talking about inducing bluffs lately so I wasn't sure how commited I should be to calling when I check here.
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Postby Mad Genius » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:53 pm

Hmm...tough river decision. I think you can make it easier on yourself by betting the full pot on the flop though. I rarely like to bet half pot on the flop unless it's for a specific reason (i.e. if I know my opponent is raising me and I have a monster), The half-pot bet really doesn't define opponent's hand all that much since he could have any sort of draw or a pair (or two).

Anyway, getting to the river the way you did, I would probably make a small bet on the river. He would most likely need a hand to come over the top of you, but if you check he can easily bet his missed draw. Also if he has a hand like 88 or 99 you are getting a little bit of extra value for your hand if he calls your small bet. The K doesn't seem to have helped him but I guess he could have slowplayed a flopped set. And then there is also the chance of him having called down your weak bets with AK. I'm not sure on this one...I'd lean towards folding. Haven't checked results yet.
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Postby Bob314 » Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:19 am

The turn bet was a beat weaker than I meant it to be. Full Tilt doesn't display the full pot, it takes of a bit for the rake each street or something so the display is always a little off the full pot size. I just glanced at the display and bet 2/3 the pot because I want my opponent to make a mistake by calling me if he is behind or maybe drawing to the flush. Your opponents make less mistakes when you make full pot bets every street.
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Postby k3nt » Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:05 pm

If I remember the discussion correctly, you only want to check to induce a bluff when you are feeling very strong about your hand. (For instance, if the flush had hit.) This is not one of those situations. You feel very iffy about your hand. Time for a smallish blocking bet -- but big enough so that if he comes back over the top of you, you feel good about laying it down.

JMHO of course.

In my experience, it's very easy to tell myself that I'm checking to induce a bluff when in fact I'm checking because I'm scared to bet any more. Then I call my opponent's big bet because, well, I meant for him to bluff, right? Nope, just an ugly, bad play. Yuck.
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Postby Bob314 » Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:10 pm

I didn't check hoping that my opponent would bet--I knew that my holding was relatively weak as the only reasonable J I am beating is Q-J and if he wasn't calling with a J he missed his draw. I checked because he had called all streets and I wouldn't be able to call a raise. I guess I could have tried a blocking bet like k3nt suggests? Would that be something around $20? It seems to me like if he has missed on some draw or is unconfident about his hand (he decided early on to call me down or something) he would check behind me. If he thinks he has me beat he'll make a value bet which hoping that I'll call (which I think it is right to do....right?) The full pot bet confused me after he had never raised me on any of the other 3 betting rounds. I thought about folding but then thought that maybe I had induced some kind of bluff even though I didn't mean to?
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Postby kennyg » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:27 am

Gotta bet more into this flop. Hopefully you take it down here..and if not you look very strong and you have the nut flush draw (which opponent doesn't know.) If he does call a bigger bet you can actually put him on some kind of decent holding as well. If he calls a 3/4 turn bet too...I def. let this hand go without improvement on the river, unless you know he is an idiot calling station.

I just looked at the results. I hate your opponents play but I do like his big bet on the river. I was gonna say fold. I was thinking along the lines of 10J, K10, or trips. Remember two big cold calls usually equals big strength (though you didn't bet large enough to really identify that). He knows his hand is good and he doesn't have to raise on any street to protect it. (in his mind)

Tough situation. I really do advocate bigger betting then you did here. Helps you get better reads and gets "suck out hands" to pay for their rediculous draws.
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