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Moving to the Dark Side: Kuso's Adventures Learning SH LHE - Live Poker Forums

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Moving to the Dark Side: Kuso's Adventures Learning SH LHE

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Moving to the Dark Side: Kuso's Adventures Learning SH LHE

Postby Kuso » Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:13 pm

Well, I finally decided to start a journal. This will be a meandering collection of my (mis)adventures into the depths of the world of short-handed limit hold 'em. With Tetsuo's permission, I have decided to post this journal in the SH section -- mainly in an attempt to bump up the traffic here.

Background
I have been playing poker seriously since April of this year (2005). My father died at a NLHE table in Vegas, and I decided to take up the game in his (dis)honor. I did lots of online reading at first, and this put a lot of interesting ideas in my head. One site mentioned that you could build up a bankroll with no seed capital via freerolls, so I decided to give this a shot. I grinded away at freerolls at PokerChamps, placed in a couple of tourneys with my winnings, then moved on to the supersoft nano-limit NL games there. Via various bonuses at other sites, I was able to build this money up to a few hundred dollars. I then found this site and PLO8, and I built my roll up to $2k. Check out for more details.

Sadly, lack of games when I want to play and lots of travel the last two months have severely limited the amount of time I have been able to play.

Why SH LHE?
There are a lot of answers to this, but it mainly it revolves around logistics and AKSHUN.

First, my game of choice, PLO8, is not a game played by many players throughout the world. Part of the reason for this is that bad players are quickly seperated from their money at this game. The split aspect of the game, the fact that it is not televised (at least not very often), and the fact that it's rarely spread in B&M casinos in the US also limit it's popularity. Anyway, as I live in Australasia, there typically aren't a lot of PLO8 games going on when I am able to play (i.e., in the evening for me, 4am-11am eastern time). There are typically between 2-4 tables of 25plo8, maybe 1 of $50 or $100. Maybe PLO has a few more than this. Anyway, there is not much in terms of table selection, and many of these tables seem to be populated with weak-tight players -- often bonus whores. It's possible to win money from these people, but I like action... I mean AKSHUN... tables.

So I started thinking about ways that I could get some AKSHUN, especially at games that I could clear bonuses. Razz and 7stud definitely meet the akshun criterion, but usually fail in the bonus clearing category. Well, I am a big fan of MKs whining and b!tching journal, and I enjoy reading about Xaston make sick amounts of money for a gentleman of his age, so I decided to take a little peak into their game of choice -- SH LHE.

I was very quickly enamored. First, TONS of tables. Even during the stupid hours I play, Party has a ton of tables going. Furthermore, at other sites, there are lots of SH tables, or you can just play at a full ring table with a few empty seats. So SH LHE meets the availability requirement.

What about the akshun? I read some posts by MK and a few others about SH LHE, and then I looked at some games, and I immediately had to change my underwear. SH LHE rewards aggression, reads, a good understanding of probability/odds, and the ability to put all of this together on the fly. This sounds like a set of skills that few can master but are right up my alley (good at stats, psychology-oriented research in school, aggressive in general, etc.). After watching some SH games on Party and PokerChamps, I figured I could beat this game, so I decided to take the leap.

So why not NLHE?
Good question. First, I should say that I might end up playing SH NLHE... not sure. But there is more to it than that. I actually have very little experience at Hold 'Em in general -- NL or Limit. I have heard that the best players master limit before NL, and I tend to agree with this idea. The main reason for this is that it is difficult to put people on a likely range of hands and develop good intuition on how the board is likely to develop when you are constantly being pushed off your hands (very common in NL). Limit allows you to develop this intuition and then make adjustments to accommodate the nuances of NL. I think it's almost impossible to do the other direction. I want to earn my stripes at the limit tables -- it's got to happen sooner or later.

Also, I think that the limited financial exposure in LHE to maniacs makes the game more enjoyable for me. In NL, a not-so-uncommon maniac at your table can really try your patience. Either you have to wait for a monster (boring) or play a very high variance game (annoying). LHE certainly has variance (particularly large at SH), and I am sure that maniacs can be annoying, but it just strikes me as easier to deal with in limit -- you're not going to get stacked a time or two before you move to a new table. My opinion on this may change (e.g., during my first 200+ BB downswing), and I may ultimately find NL to be to my liking. For now, LHE hits my sweet spot.

What I've done so far
Here is a post on at PokerChamps. In short, I've cleaned up (>20bb/100), although only at nanolimits (.02/.04, .05/.10, and .10/.20) and with a stupidly small sample size. My aggression gets rewarded in spades. I tend to like the 3-4 handed games best. 2-handed is OK, and I haven't played enough 5- or 6-handed to get a good bead on the quality of my play.

I haven't jumped into Party yet (probably start this week), but I am a bit worried about the calling stations and the schooling effect. It seems like most of the games are relatively passive, but raises are called down by several people. It seems like you need to have _some_ kind of hand at SD, as it seems difficult to push the whole table off their hands. Then again, maybe A-high qualifies as good enough to showdown with. We'll see.

Where I want to go
Planet 10. "When?" Real soon. 8-)

No, really. After I get about a thousand hands under my belt at the nanolimits, I'll probably move over to Party and play at the beginner tables -- first at .15/.30, and then up to .50/1 or 1/2 (depending on the softness). If and when I get comfortable at those tables, I'll just move to the regular Party tables. Once I feel confident at 1/2, I'll start whoring the bonus sites like MK works his favorite tranny hooker's poop chute. I hope to be able to do this (bonus whore, not do a s s -- get your mind out of the gutter!) within a month or so.

Beyond the one month time span, I eventually hope to move up to 2/4 and 3/6 (maybe around January). If I kill the games and whore with the best of them, I may have the BR, experience, and confidence to take on the 5/10 games. I'm aiming for 6 months before I really consider that option seriously. I can't really say that I have ambitions to play the 10/20 or 15/30 games at the moment. It seems like a lot of really good players have Peter Principled out at this level, and I don't see any reason why I should butt my head against a wall. If I can find soft games at those levels, though...

My financial goals are to earn about $1000 to $2000 per month. This should be pretty easy to do given that both my wife and I can almost clear the lower end of that band with bonuses alone -- the poker profit is just gravy. I can play about 10-15 hours per week (more during my slow seasons at work). I'll also play $25, $50, and $100 PLO8 when there are good tables available. Any thoughts on the viability of these numbers?

Expected journal content
My next post is going to be an annotated bibliography of links that I find. I'll keep that list updated and discuss the updates in the journal posts. I am very interested in discussing the situational nuances that seem so common in SH LHE. I also intend to post plenty of hands for comment and review.

For my "special" posts, I'll be giving updates on MK's adventures with tranny hookers (MVP is filming), TW's sexploits with various farm animals, and Xaston's attempts to grow a pair and learn to drive on expressways... and those are just the highlights. :twisted:

I hope to develop a good chat box banter so that I can keep a table live, so I'll be asking for some feedback. I've avoided chat so far, as it just distracts me... I could be watching DVR instead of messing with these yahoos. But with SH, I think that it's important to come across as a LAG or a donk. MK seems to be a specialist at this (people think he's loose, when in fact he's the tightest at the table), so I hope he can chime in with a few helpful pointers. Of course, any and all commentary is welcome.

I also plan to pose a Question of the Day. Hopefully this will get some dialogue going.

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I've written enough for a first post. So, welcome to my journal -- I look forward to your comments and suggestions.


[edited for spelling and to add a section]
Last edited by Kuso on Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Kuso » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:30 pm



MEbenhoe's - This seems to be the most revered starting hand charts on the HUSH forums at 2+2. The discusison that follows is good. The chart seems to be updated regularly (now on v2.0). There is a link to a PDF somewhere down in the thread.

Jason Pohl's - This collection of articles opened my eyes a bit. There are a lot of gaps to be filled (hey, it's only a handful of articles), but he presents a lot of ideas that give the reader food for thought. Working at applying these ideas to a specific set of circumstances will likely improve your theoretical understanding of proper play.

Hypermegachi's - This is a short strategy primer for the 6-max LHE game. Some of the tips are really quite handy and well-stated.

GoCee.com's - This chart shows the pot equity of each starting hand against a random hand played HU to the river. The results can be a bit deceiving given that: 1) you are playing against a selected hand rather than a random hand, and 2) most hands aren't played to the river. That being said, this chart HU players some food for thought with regards to raising for value preflop. It can also help with deciding which hands to complete and/or call raises with preflop, but going purely by these stats is a bit cavalier given the weaknesses mentioned above.
Last edited by Kuso on Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Kuso » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:56 pm

Ok, so my first content post is going to be about MEbenhoe's that I added to the link list -- the next will be a gratuitous post about sex with twins.

So what do you all think of this chart? How can a chart like this get a player into trouble? Also, I wonder how valid it is across the various limits.

Looks pretty good to me as a starter, but I imagine that you have to adapt it to your table. I think a few of these hands might be trap hands if you're sitting at a table with a bunch of muppets. Also, I think the VPIP is mid- to high-20s if you play the blinds moderately. I'm not sure about that.

QotD: Here is a chart posted by Nate tha Great on possible VPIP targets with various numbers of players at the table:

2-handed 55% VPIP
3-handed 46% VPIP
4-handed 36% VPIP
5-handed 29% VPIP
6-handed 25% VPIP

FWIW, I gather that Nate is a respected winning player. So when you are adapting MEbenhoe's chart to fewer players, what features have the most value? High pip value (follow ups... What constitutes "high"? One or both cards?)? Connectedness? Suitedness? Or what?
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Postby Xaston » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:59 am

The chart is a good place to start, but at shorthanded tables even more so than full tables you need to adjust. If there's a maniac to your right, folding TT every time it's 3 bets to you is throwing out EV. You're gonna encounter a pretty broad spectrum of players. Ace-Freeley of UPF says his shorthanded strategy is nearly the same as he plays at full tables and that most people over adjust. I tend to disagree, there are about half as many players dealt in the hand, with the same amount of money posted involuntarily, and that spells big changes to me. BUT, he plays and wins and so do I, and you need to know which one of us you're playing before you muck your TT to a 3 bet (I 3 bet with KJ more often than not).
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Postby Kuso » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:23 pm

Last edited by Kuso on Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Kuso » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:06 pm

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Postby Kuso » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:50 pm

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Postby Kuso » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:27 am

OK, so I was datamining .5/1 tables at Party, and I see this suh-weet table. VPIP over 60, low aggression, avg pot about 8, and one clown who would call down to the river with anything.

I figured it was as good a time as any to give Party a try. I started 10bb up, but after ending down 40bb later over about 150 hands, I had to rethink my attempt at Party. :shock:

To be fair, I think I had a lot of bad luck (see below). Still, after reviewing the whole session, I can account for at least 20bb that I donked off through my poor play. Anyway, the money is not that much, but it demonstrated that I need to improve my game before I try that again.

Some of the wonders:

- I was dealt AQo 7 times -- and lost them all. :shock: I raised PF each time, but managed to run into: trip 3s, trip 9s, trip Js, a runner-runner str8 (although he did have a flush draw from the flop, too), a set of Ks that did not raise PF when I hit an A, TT when we both whiffed and he wouldn't lay down to overcards and aggression, and a Q3 who hit their kicker on the flop but didn't raise. I have very limited SH LHE experience, but this has to be some kind of statistical anomaly. Anyway, these hands alone were 22bbs lost according to PT stats, and easily many more BBs if one counts the opportunity cost of the lost pots (maybe up to 60bb ot so -- although I wouldn't expect to win them all).

- AA lost to a rivered gutter on non-threatening board -- about 12bb pot.

- My KQ that pairs on the flop and 2prs on the river gets beat by a guttered str8 on the river -- 12bb pot.

- JJ (twice) and KK ran into overcards that had passive players betting out (and ultimately showing the goods after I folded) -- several potential BBs there. KK only holds up once with little action.

- split pot three times -- twice when board paired to make my superior kicker useless.

- turned str8 gets rivered with four-flush board

Anyway, does this seem like an unusually high number of bad luck for 150 hands? This may sound like a stupid question, but I just don't have enough limit experience to know for sure.

Honestly, I was really excited that the deck was slapping me upside the head (AQo 5% of your hands -- you've got to be kidding), but took revenge post flop.

Besides the result, I was overall pretty happy with the quality of my play. My aggression one me some pots with no hand, and I only overdid the aggression a couple of times. My biggest leaks were overplaying small pocket pairs and overplaying the SB (75% VPIP).
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Postby Kuso » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:41 am

I also forgot to mention that I went to PokerChamps for a little lower stake action -- just to end on a positive note. I got my confidence back quite quickly.

Today I hit up PC for another short session -- at .25/.50 this time -- and made a nice 15bb in 30 hands. :D

I have yet to have a losing session at PC, but I can imagine that my next one will be since I mentioned it here. :wink:
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Postby Kuso » Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:34 pm

I pulled a little hit and run today when I found my favorite player was sitting at a soft table.

This person has fold to flop-turn-river percentages of 10-10-30. :shock: This is the epitome of the calling station. The best part is that s/he only bets with 2pr or better and only then if she is the aggressor. S/he only calls down (no raises) with two pair or trips (could be beat, you know), and s/he only raises with the top set or better.

Anyway, I caught a few hands and won a couple of pots quick, so I jetted. I had some stuff to do, but I just couldn't resist. :twisted:

I added to the links section. I think this is one of the finer introductions to the game that I've read so far.

Anyone know of a better one (other than MK's masterpiece, that is)?
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Postby MVPSPORTS » Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:57 pm

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Postby Kuso » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:12 am

OK... long since time to update this rag.

shows how poorly people understand HU. Some of the comments just exude complete cluelessness.
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Postby Kuso » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:30 am

Update on my 6max LHE playing.

Well, after the last session report, I continued to play 6max, but just found it to be a grind. If I wanted to grind, I could play PLO8 for much more money. But then, two fortuitous things happened to me....

First, I wondered why I could kill the games at PokerChamps but kind of tread water at Party. I thought about it a bit, and realized that I rarely played more than 4-handed at PC, and I played lots of HU. Hhhmmmm.... there's an idea. So I go to Party and start up new tables. Within something like 200 hands, I had put myself in the black at Party. Tasty. There was one problem, though, in that tables filled up rather quickly. I would often play some 6max when waiting for a HU table, so I still needed to bump up my 6max skills.

The second fortuitous thing that happened helped me do this. I read on another forum that basically the no fold 'em hold 'em 6max (esp. at Party) was not much unlike FR games, and the advice in SSHE would pay off huge dividends if applied well. Well, I had read a bit of SSHE, but I had not been interested in FR at the time. I went back and studied SSHE in terms of 6max, and it helped my game A LOT. I still hate the variance, and I still think it's a grind, but my game improved.

As a side note, I also realized that the higher levels of 6max LHE are highly read dependent. I think I am good at this, but good reads only can go so far (see my next post). Seeing really good players like Xas and MK succumb to massive downswings caused the appeal of 6max to disappear.

Anyway, I realized that my passion was and is for 2-4 handed, so that's what I've stuck with. I've been playing mostly lower limits (esp. for bonuses) up to 3/6. There are no shortage of donators, but you have to watch out for the rake. The best part is that even people at higher levels typically don't seem to play a good game. Furthermore, even people who have a good HU game tend not to make proper adjustments for 3-handed and 4-handed. Anyway, overall, these games seem juicy.

For various reasons, I decided to go back to playing primarily PLO8 and PLO, but again I've started to rethink this. The main reason I have issues with these games is the lack of game selection when I usually play. The weekends are easy pickings, but the weekday evenings are typically dead.

Anyway, I've really missed HU, and I've been thinking that I might want to try and take my game up to the next level and try to play at higher stakes. 5/10 to 15/30 are nice intermediary steps, but they aren't good places to end up due to the rake. As such, my goal would be AT LEAST 25/50, and preferably higher. Of course, there are some bankroll issues involved with playing that high in addition to my game not being quite as polished as I want, but I think that it's doable in the long run.

Updates forthcoming.


[edited for spelling, punctuation, typing, wording, etc.]
Last edited by Kuso on Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:08 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Kuso » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:47 am

This is that hand (played in October) that caused me really to hate 6max and question why I was playing it.

Villain was an uberlag running over the table. I had done OK so far against Villain, but I was really looking for a monster to trap this chodewhacker.


$0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: johndavis999 ( $5.68 )
Seat 4: chrissy2519 ( $43.48 )
Seat 3: Hero ( $23.75 )
Seat 6: Enson108 ( $22.50 )
Seat 2: Bupaa ( $23 )
Seat 5: lychtp ( $23.25 )
lychtp posts small blind [$0.25].
Enson108 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [Kh] [Kc]
johndavis999 folds.
Bupaa folds.
Hero raises [$1].
chrissy2519 raises [$1.50].
lychtp folds.
Enson108 folds.
Hero raises [$1].
chrissy2519 calls [$0.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [Jd] [3h] [4d]
Hero bets [$0.50].
chrissy2519 raises [$1].
Hero calls [$0.50].
** Dealing Turn ** [Kd]
Hero bets [$1].
chrissy2519 raises [$2].
Hero raises [$2].
chrissy2519 raises [$2].
Hero calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [9d]
Hero checks.
chrissy2519 bets [$1].
Hero calls [$1].
chrissy2519 shows [5d] [5c] a flush, king high.
Hero doesn't show [Kh] [Kc] three of a kind, kings.
chrissy2519 wins $16 from the main pot with a flush, king high.


I probably should have bet the river, but I was fairly certain that villain would only fold hands that I beat, and I wanted at least another bet.

The fact that Villain loved his/her 55 with two overs is indicative of his/her style of play. This lucksack river just pissed me off to no end.

Don't get me wrong, this stuff happens in HU all the time, but you don't have to wait around for a monster AND dodge the bullets of other players aiming for the LAG in order to extract maximum value from the LAG's overplays.
Last edited by Kuso on Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Kuso » Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:08 am

Interesting note that I'm going to shame myself with here...

My biggest weakness is trying to bluff players who play this style: fold with air, check/call with non-TP pair, bet/raise with TP or better.

It seems like these players should be easy to beat -- and they are. The catch is that you can't bluff them off weak holdings that they probably should lay down. Some guys even go as far to call down with K-high and A-high. This is not a bad strategy against a bluffer :oops: , but once they're figured out, you can just make one stab at a bluff on the flop if you caught air and value bet them to death if you have something. This is one part of my game that needs to be MUCH more consistent. I make the read fairly quickly but don't adapt my actions accordingly.

Hopefully this shame post will set me straight.
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