Yea, I seriously doubt there will be any. You'd need something like 40 minute blind increase and around 10k stack before you'd need to think about changing your style.

I really like the tourneys at UB, though I didnt really like the site in general. 12 min per level is about as good as you will find online.

Another thought to add to to this excellent thread- one of the reason that guys like Hansen et al can get away with playing garbage is that they can read many of the pros very well as some of them are predictable. i.e. if someone is raising up front they are very unlikely to have hit a ragged flop. This logic does not generally apply to most online tournaments, especially the cheaper ones, where the amount of people making the 'correct' folds in any given situation would be far less. You can't push these people around or off a hand which is why, in my view, you have to play tight early doors, as Kowboy says, and wait for a chance to show them the best hand.

I think that even a Negraneu playing his usual loose aggressive way would need to get very lucky in a big online MTT- it doesn't matter if you are the best post flop player in the world if you have to show the fish the best hand to win!

So, I think this is all about tailoring your style to your opponent. Sure, Hansen will raise with 6 4 offsuit when he is faced with a pro on the blinds, who can't call without something big, but only because he will know what kind of flop will have hit him. He wouldn't do it if he knew his opponent would call him with anything, like your average low level online player would.

When I was talking about the loose player not repeating I was refering to online MTT's. As for Gus and other loose Pro players. You are seeing them at the final table making these plays against players that Doyle likes to call other skilled opponents.

I still believe that you can't win a MTT in the early stages but you sure can lose one. One of my favorite players is Mr. "All In". So I am not closed minded to the loose aggressive style.

I challenge ya'll to start watching the MTT's you play in or any others for that matter. Make note of the chip leader after the first and second break. Then look for them at the final table. Bring me your % and if it is more then 50%, I will change my way of thinking. Why these %? Because if I am above average after the second break I make the final table 40% of the time.

Look at the BTP Trn even though it is very small. If Kenny's brother doesn't suck out on me by making a very bad call on a draw for his trn life that late in a Trn not only do I make the final table I more then likely win.

So what went wrong? I wasn't playing against people playing against other skilled opponents. So even Gus would have lost that hand with his 64o.

Great debate everyone keep it going.

I personally like TK's style of play in a MTT (all on UB). I don't get too excited about who is in the chip lead the first hour. I usually see them busting out before the second hour break. In my last trny I even had the personal honor of being the bustee

For the first hour I play super tight - only top ten hands. My goal is to try to double up once in that first hour but if I don't I want as many of my chips as possible. Twice this month I have had the situtation where I came to the last hand before the break having played only 4 or 5 hands (including BB) only to get dealt KK once and AK once. I doubled up both times. That set me well for the second hour where I try to loosen up a little and double up a couple times more. This will usually set me up to make a good run for ITM.

I'm working on my third hour play now. I'm not very good yet at changing gears and loosening up when I am ITM. I still tend to make a dumb call and bust out earlier than necessary. Gotta learn to make that good lay down.

Let's keep this discussion going. I am feeling pretty good about my tournament play right now but know all too well I have a LOT to learn. BTW, I play mostly $5 MTTs and a weekly $3 "friendly" private event on Saturday nights. I am becoming a regular at the final table in that Saturday night event but have won it only once. All on UB.

Floppy, How can you win if your not at the final table?

Also, if your not feeling like grinding it out the 1st hour. Go to the SnG's enter a SnG at the buy in you feel comfortable with and play it the 1st hour while your in the MTT.

I want to be clear. I am not sitting there the first hour waiting for AA, KK or AKs to play a hand. I limp with Axs, A10o,JQo and any PP even 22. But I dont call a raise from someone who I see is playing tight unless I have 10,10 or better PP or AQs or better. When I do have AA, KK, AKs I not only call a raise but I re-raise and if he wants to go all in I will call him and hope he doesn't have Aces. If I have a guy targeted like a Gus type I will put him all in with 10,10 or better. After he mucks a couple times or doubles me up I look for another target because he is gone or has tightened up.

I play my $100 MTT's the same as my $10 MTT's. The easiest way to win a MTT is pick one with less people in it. I like to stay within 100 to 200 players. The big $5 buy in with 1000+ players you have to double up early and often to have any chance at all.

I play most of my tourneys live, so the SnG isn't really an option. I don't mean to berate your play at all, but at tournaments with some half decent tight players, playing tight just doesn't pay off that well. Maybe finding decent players in online tourneys is more difficult.

As to the question about winning without making final tables...

I'm more or less saying, I have no problem taking a calculated risk if it will give me a lbetter shot at winning, even if it means forfeiting the final table once in a while.

Ok Flop. We are comparing apples and oranges to a certian degree.

Live play you have the added extra which is "tells". I play looser live MTT's then I do online. I still don't go Gus Hansen but I play a lot more suited connectors ect.... I also found that live B&M 3 table MTT's the blinds go up if not faster then bigger compared to your stack because they want to get the MTT over with so they can start getting more rack from the side ring games. So you either must loosen up or get blinded out.

Great debate everyone!

I don't think it's really aplles and oranges, you just gotta move up to a more serious level online before playing loose will pay off.

...played another multi last night...331 players, $30 entry...yep, you gotta get lucky a time or two, or 3.... down to 50 players, me and another guy, call him Lucky, had about 8 BB's of chips left, i had to make a stand to get to the money REAL soon....the other guy DID make his stand, all in, he had 10's, got a call and doubled up, ...2 hands later, he all in'd w/ AJo, got a call and doubled up again, button was coming, i caught a KQs so all in, guy next to me called, guy next to him went all in...i knew i was in trouble, one had QQ other had AJs,,,i was gone in 45th place... few hands later Lucky was big chip leader...
Point is...he got lucky, i didn't, he was in commanding position now to make the final table...at some point, you gotta roll the dice and hope to get lucky, i still think, mostly skill will GET you in position, but luck plays a bigger role when you're getting close to the money...
I stayed and watched, and took notes on players, and another guy, call him Lawyer, got lucky TIME after TIME after TIME...every time he was low stacked, about 5 or 6 BB's, he went all in...and he had KK, AA, AK those times, kept doubling back up, staying alive, hit a flush on the river once, he got to the final 7 players...just rambling thoughts...i DID play a few long shots early in tourny, and ironically, a 9 6 std doubled me up, hitting the nut strt on the flop.
Question, one needs to get in final 3 about what? 1 out of a dozen times to be profitible? Kowboy? Anyone? Any ITM % numbers here for MTT's?

Depends on your definition of "Profitable" - if it just means operating at a profit - you can do quite well, even with relatively few final table appearances:

For instance, here's a grouping of tournaments I have stats on:

92 total tournaments,
3 final tables, 23 total ITM finishes
4 bubble (tables - within 9 spots of the money)
ROI% is 189.93%

These are all tournaments with buyins ranging from $1 to $10 though, so if you have a different definition for profitable - then these numbers are awful deceptive.

/d

I dont keep hard numbers anymore Wild Bill. I should but have gotten lazy. In the MTT's I play which are the same range and yours it looks like $20 to $50 you don't have to make the final 3 to be profitable. If I can turn 20 into 200 by making the final 7 I am happy. If I turn my 50 into 150 going out 12th that's ok. The trick is I do it around 50% of the time. Sometimes luck goes my way and make the final 3 or even win then I am taking home a grand or better.

You are right about luck coming into play. tonight I was playing a $50 SnG. I was getting no card. 3,5 2,8 4,7. I am finally short stacked with around 400 in chips the blinds are 300 and I am the BB. 4 players left. UTG doubled it all fold to me I have J4o. I go ahead and push because I am not going to do anything with 100 in chips. UTG has K4o. My 4 was a club and I hit a flush. Now I have 1000. Long story short I finish 2nd when 2 are left we are about even I push all in with AJ and the other player has 77. I miss.

The same thing happens in MTT's someone gets hot at the right time what can you do.

Flop I am not sure what you call serious levels online? You have your stratagy and I have mine and I already conceeded that you should play what works for you.

I think that it is easier to teach someone to play tight aggresive if they are new to MTT's then it is to play loose. After they start making the money then they can start adjusting there style for what they feel most comfortable with. To play a loose style you have to pick and choose when it is time to push and when it is time to back off and if our not seasoned you will be eaten alive.