KKxx at 2000plo8

[Kuso]

Discuss Hero and BB's lines -- strong points and weak points.


Party Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring game
Blinds: $10/$20
10 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $1850
UTG+1: $3427.25
UTG+2: $4131.99
MP1: $1950
MP2: $5747.29
MP3: $3819.80
CO: $3872.56
Button: $370
Hero: $2223.56
BB: $2941

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is SB with
6 folds, CO calls $20 (pot was $30), Button raises to $90, Hero raises to $310, BB calls $290 (pot was $430), CO folds, Button calls all-in $280, Hero calls $60 (pot was $910), BB calls $60 (pot was $970).

Flop: ($1130, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $1130)
Hero bets $1127, BB calls $1127 (pot was $2257).

Turn: ($3384, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $1130, Sidepot 1: $2254)
Hero is all-in $726.56, BB calls $726.56 (pot was $1856.56).

River: ($4837.12, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1130, Sidepot 1: $3707.12)


Results:
Final pot: $4837.12
Hero shows Kh Kc 5c Qh
BB shows Ac Jh 2c 5d
Button shows 3s Ah 3c 4s

[briachek]

Kuso and I had a lot to talk about with this hand so i guess he figured we should open it up to the public.

[Kuso]

[devilmollusk]

Interesting. High variance play for sure, especially since you could be against AA. I can see the line... you are hoping at least one of them is low only. Once that flop comes I think you have to push.

[JDLush]

My guess is hero is a crack addict and it's been a while since the last fix.

[TomG]

I saw this hand in WM's LJ and I don't get it. Okay, so WM's trying to re-raise to isolate the shortstack and get it all-in pre-flop. For his plan to work, both the BB and the CO have to fold. Okay, not bad that seems reasonably likely to happen. If not, though, hero is screwed having committed a significant amount of money into the pot out of position with a very marginal holding. If his plan succeeds... well hero isn't even guranteed to be much (if any) of a favorite heads-up against a random hand! So I don't get it.

I would be sick when the BB calls and now WM leads out into a dry pot on the flop. I hate playing hands with dry pots, because so much of PLO8 is semi-bluffing between high hands and low hands. Is this meant to be a value bet that a worse hand will call? Perhaps it will buy him some equity in the main pot if he can get the BB to fold. That seems reasonable, although an expensive price to pay for the added equity. I don't know.

As an aside, I call those kind of starting hands "cribbage hands" and I never play cribbage hands in PLO8.

[TomG]

And, if I was the BB, I would have called pre-flop also. That's a bad flop for my hand, though. I would be pissed at WM for betting into a dry pot like that. I would curse, fold, and look forward to seeing WM's hand at showdown.

[Kuso]

[Kuso]

OK... my take.

I both like and dislike the preflop reraise. I like it because I think it's a good idea to attempt to isolate the short stack (SS). Short stacks will go crazy with a wide range of hands, and KKxx is ahead of most of them. I have no read on this specific villain, so maybe he's different -- this is just a generalization about SSs.

I don't like the pfrr for two reasons. First, a reraise here almost screams out AA or KK (at least at the levels I play). As such, a decent player can call with a wide range of hands hoping to hit a hand like 2pr or a pair and a draw. Second, if anyone calls, Hero is OOP for the rest of the hand -- yuck. Furthermore, if two or more low cards come on the flop, Hero might have to CB and have no idea where he stands (up against a low? a high? a two-way hand?)

When BB calls, I'm not liking my hand/position all of a sudden.

The flop takes some of the heat off, though. The kings in hand serve as effective blockers for the broadway straight draw, and the 9T straight is an unlikely holding (BB would have to have A29T or something like that unless he just likes those mid-wrap hands). There is only one low card, so the low hands probably will fold to heat -- I'd really be hating it if two or three low cards hit the flop (likely splitting the side pot while possibly getting semi-freerolled). JQ is one hand that villain could hold, but it's statistically unlikely. KK is likely ahead -- maybe only a TP hand (esp. with flush draw) will call -- so betting out seems good to me. FWIW, actual values:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1641627
pokenum -o8 kh kc 5c qh - ac jh 2c 5d -- 8h qd jd
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Qd Jd 8h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 5c Kh Qh 456 592 228 0 0 0 0 0.639
Ac 2c 5d Jh 228 228 592 0 224 0 0 0.361


Not really sure what villain was thinking here. If he held the diamond draw, though:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1642445
pokenum -o8 kh kc 5c qh - ad jh 2c 5d -- 8h qd jd
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Qd Jd 8h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 5c Kh Qh 273 359 461 0 0 0 0 0.385
2c Ad 5d Jh 461 461 359 0 224 0 0 0.615


I wouldn't be happy about this as Hero.


I would personally only put the SS on AA (if anyone). If he has it (as I said before, usually SSs have a wide range), then good for him. If BB had AA, then I imagine he would have rereraised getting almost half a stack in preflop. I also imagine that CO would have openraised with AA, so that possibility is really not likely. These reasons are why I wouldn't fear AA in this hand.

Overall, while Mute was ahead when he got all the money in (largely due to Villain being a complete idiot), I think that this hand is usually one where he wins a small pot or loses a big one. I think the reverse implied odds are fairly huge against a thinking player that puts Mute on AA or KK, and that makes the reraise preflop questionable in my book.

I'm not really sure how I'd play this, though. I'm thinking that maybe I would call and see what BB and CO did and take it from there. On the same flop with the same players, I think I check hoping that BB checks and Button bets so I can CR. A lot would really depend on reads and PAhud stats (e.g., fold to flop raise and agg freq). If the CR didn't get it HU with SS, then I probably wouldn't put any more money in the pot (esp. when the third diamond hits the turn). Again, a lot would depend on reads. Check-fold would also be possible for me on the flop just because I don't want to trap myself and build a big pot OOP with just an overpair. Check-call strikes me as a bit silly unless I think BB will passively check it down on the turn and river.

[Kuso]

[JDLush]

Yeah, that's true, crack is so last week.

Seriously, I would like to think (maybe I should read the LJ and find out for myself) that there was some metagame/solid read/alcohol-based reasoning behind the play. He doesn't look like a complete maniac in this case thanks to a pretty generous flop for his hand, and a couple of iffy calls from the other 2. If he had a read on there being a good possibility that he'd get called by some marginal hands then sure, I can live with it. If it's a case of giving action to get action then that's fine as well.

I have a hard time critiquing someone's play when they are making a play, which it sure looks like he's doing here. If he had called an all in on that flop with his hand then my crack comment would be more warranted. Actually, some form of sedation would be more warranted. But I really don't think you can get on someone for making a play/stealing/bluffing in the right situation(s).

If he does have a read on the villains here and they have been playing some iffy stuff then why choose this hand to go to war with them? Was it a case of card-deadness? What does he do on a flop that contains 2 or 3 low cards? Does he throw out a CB? From what I've read of his stuff, it seems like he is a 'in for the flop, in for the river' kinda guy. If the flop comes 478r can he let it go? If the hand was KKQQ or KKJ9 or something with a little more going for it than KKds I'd feel a whole lot warmer inside. If he had the same hand but was playing PLO high then it's different too.

[januarymute]

[JDLush]

[januarymute]

Although my play on this hand was motivated by some reasonable strategic thought (namely both opponents being utter retards), the biggest motivating factor was tilt. The most +EV play here is to either call PF or muck. However, I decided to try to isolate that little fuck-monkey shortstack. When the other jackass calls, I am planning to give up on the hand for most flops; however, this flop was a good one, so I shove, expecting to pick up the pot most of the time. The call worried me, but there's a chance I can pick up the sidepot with a turn bet if he has no flush (though doubtful since it put 2 to a low out). In any case, I'm committed by the turn, if not mathematically then psychologically, so I might as well lead.

The reason for posting that hand was to share a beat, let others share in the misery of an iffy play gone spectacularly right in terms of my opponents holdings, but horribly wrong in terms of final outcome. Those hands are the most difficult for me to swallow; took a big risk, was on the right end of it hunch-wise, still got fucked. It was not a well played hand on my part, though not as poorly played as one might think, as shown by the ridiculous hand turned up by the other deep stack.

In any event, it's important for everybody here to recognize that not every hand played by a strong player is going to be well-played. Nobody is immune to suboptimal play, even massive mistakes that are much much worse than this. So as always, I'd urge you to not base your learning on trying to get in the minds of other players, but rather to learn experientially by playing a shitload of poker; otherwise, you'll find yourself sticking in reraises from the SB with KKxx and telling yourself "WM does it, why not me."