Playing High PP

[APerfect10]

I am having a difficult week. It seems that my high PP are losing more frequently then they should be. Everytime I have AA, KK, QQ, JJ it seems someone else flops a set, straight, or flush which in turn is making me less aggressive once I get a caller after the flop. Due to this drop in aggression, I am in turn getting rivered quite frequently by players who are overplaying draws.

My question is this. When you have a high PP and the flop comes with your pair being the overs. (KK, flop comes with no Ace) when do you either lay it down or bet weaker than 2/3 to full pot.

Typically, if I have a high PP I will lead out with a 2/3 to full pot sized bet. If I get raised, I will either fold or call and hope for my set on the turn. If I get a caller or two, I will once again lead out with 1/2-2/3 pot sized bet. Is my play over aggressive? Too passive? Any advice would be appreciated.

Also, this should probably go in the Odds section but what are the odds that someone flops a set? My guesstimate is around 30% although that seems high?

Thanks!

[APerfect10]

Please critique my play here....

MP1 is a slightly loose, aggressive, aggressive, PFR 17.43% PFA around 9. Close to maniac. Earlier in the session I had a high PP and this identical situation arose. He pre flop raised $2, I raised him to $5. Flop came, he led out, I raised and he folded.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed)

CO ($41.8)
Button ($26.55)
SB ($42.8)
BB ($24.25)
UTG ($60.55)
UTG+1 ($25.8)
MP1 ($44.15)
MP2 ($3.75)
APerfect10 ($107.65)

Preflop: APerfect10 is MP3 with , . SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $3, 1 fold, APerfect10 raises to $6, 4 folds, MP1 calls $3.

Flop: ($12.75) , , (2 players)
MP1 bets $8, APerfect10 raises to $16, MP1 calls $30.15 (All-In), APerfect10 folds.

Final Pot: $66.90

Since MP1 did not reraise me pre flop which I think he would've done with AA, KK and probably even QQ, I put him on 99 or 10's pre flop. I know he has no problem leading out post flop with nothing, so I reraised him to either take the pot down right there and gauge his hand. Since I did not hold 1 heart, I did not want to go any further.

Personally, when he pushed after my reraise, I do not believe he had QQ or two hearts. I think it was a bluff; however, with that Q on the board and no hearts in my hand, I couldnt make the call, even against this maniac.

[Mad Genius]

Don't re-raise preflop. Fold the flop. You don't even have top pair and only 1 card can help you. Tons of scare cards can hit and you could already be drawing to runners.

[APerfect10]

What advantage do I create for myself if I only call pre flop? If I do that, I'm essentially only playing for the set and if it does not hit, I'm done. This guy was a maniac who would raise $3 with AKo, or even as low as 77. Reraising does 3 things for me where calling does not.

1. I can buy the pot right there.
2. I can gauge his hand strength.
3. It gives me the momentum.

If I call pre flop, and the flop comes with a 10 high, then I'm really in a bind and could very easily be folding the best hand.

Folding post flop rather than raising, I can see; however, that was very difficult for me to do knowing that he more than likely had nothing. However, if I am not willing to go all-in there maybe it was best to fold rather than reraise.

[Rhound50]

First off if you are going to reraise this preflop with JJ (I would just call and see a flop). You need to make it a bigger reraise than $3. There is no point in reraising one unit, you are not getting him pot committed and you arent going to push him off a hand. After this flop you have to get away from JJ, you dont even have an over pair. Any Q has you a huge underdog and even worse any Q with a heart has you drawing to 1 out. You are not at all pot committed, you only put 12% of your chips in preflop.

Your big problem here is that there are very few hands that you have dominated. If he has AA, KK you have 2 outs, 1 if they have the heart, your drawing pretty much dead if he has QQ. Even if he his is on a semi bluff with AK one heart you are pretty much 50/50, if he has 99 or 1010 with a heart you are 55/45 ahead. The only hands you have dominated are 1010 or 99 with no heart, there are a ton of hands that have you destroyed.

[Mad Genius]

Aperfect you need to understand such ideas as pot control, disguising your hand, and minimizing volatility.

Call the bet and you can not only play for a set but also for a rag board. If he has a wide range of hands that he raises with you can easily have the best hand if all unders come. More than 50% of the time the flop will come with all unders or a Jack.

[Dumb Snowman]

JJ really ain't a re-raising hand, barring a REALLY good read. It's a real tricky hand to play, 10-handed, so I just play it for set value... easier that way

[Rhound50]

I actually disagree with you here floppy, when playing against a borderline maniac, I will play JJ quite strong for a couple of reasons. I want to isolate if there are 5 players in the pot and an AKQ flops there is a good chance I'm drawing at 2 outs. In this situation I want the idiot calling a decent chunk of his money with AJ,A10, K/J because I have him dominated. If the over card hits I am going to have to release it but the whole point is that I want him calling with these hands in the long run they make me money. Depending on postion I probably raise to $10 to isolate and fold to the flop.

[APerfect10]

First, thank you for your comments. I appreciate all the input I can get.

First off if you are going to reraise this preflop with JJ (I would just call and see a flop). You need to make it a bigger reraise than $3. There is no point in reraising one unit, you are not getting him pot committed and you arent going to push him off a hand.

A $3 raise is actually 6 units since this is $25 N at PartyL. If I raise more than $3, that defeats the purpose of my raise IMHO. I reraised to see if he was on AA, KK since I would expect a reraise over top of my $3 raise. I am 99% certain that he would reraise with AA, KK or even QQ. By raising $3 here, I now know that he's on 10's or lower or even AK possibly AQ.

After this flop you have to get away from JJ, you dont even have an over pair. Any Q has you a huge underdog and even worse any Q with a heart has you drawing to 1 out. You are not at all pot committed, you only put 12% of your chips in preflop. Your big problem here is that there are very few hands that you have dominated. If he has AA, KK you have 2 outs, 1 if they have the heart, your drawing pretty much dead if he has QQ. Even if he his is on a semi bluff with AK one heart you are pretty much 50/50, if he has 99 or 1010 with a heart you are 55/45 ahead. The only hands you have dominated are 1010 or 99 with no heart, there are a ton of hands that have you destroyed.

I agree, that is why I eventually folded. Probably should have folded rather than reraise.

Taking your advice; how would you play a ragged flop with 10 high? What if he leads out with a Pot sized bet? Do you then reraise or fold? By taking your advice, I'm not sure you know exactly what he is on. He could be on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ or even 9's or 8's.

Thanks once again for all the replies and advice.

[k3nt]

FWIW, Mr. Ten, I don't hate the way you played it at all. Sometimes when you're playing with a maniac you have to try to push him right back. It didn't work out, but you didn't lose that much.

A maniac will bet that board on the flop no matter what if they're first to act, hoping the board scares you as much as it scares them. You have no idea if you're ahead or not. So your re-raise is a pretty high-variance play, but he could well fold.

On his re-raise all in, of course, you have to fold. You never know for sure -- he could be making the all-in reraise with zip. But you can't call it. That seems to be how maniacs make a lot of their money -- they make one more bet than you can sensibly call.

Yesterday I raised preflop with AK, got one caller -- a pretty good player (for my level, at least) who I've played with before several times. When I raise preflop I pretty much always bet the flop no matter what. Apparently he has figured this out about me. So anyway, the flop came all rags. I bet out, he raised me the minimum. I knew I had to act quickly rather than thinking about it -- I put him on a bluff and re-raised him right back. He folded pretty quickly. Nice result. I wouldn't mind playing it the same way again.

Obviously you thought you had a read on your guy as well. It didn't work out for you this time. But it might have. Long-term, if you remember this guy and he remembers you, this play may make you some money. He'll know that you'll re-raise him on a scary board and then fold, so next time you do the same thing, he goes all-in and you have the goods.