PLO8 - 23xx question

[davebreal]

[Kuso]

i like to play these hands more from CO-1 (MP3 at party) or later. this is useful for two reasons. first, if you are first or second in, there seems to be a better chance of flopping an ace than when lots of people are already in (unscientific speculation on my part). also, if you have position on a raiser, it is much easier to outplay them after the flop.

fwiw, i'll often open-raise from MP2 and later with these kinds of hands depending on who is behind me.

in your speific scenario, i only call if one of two conditions exist: 1) i feel confident i can outplay pf raiser oop, or 2) i feel confident the pf raiser will pay be off with his stack often enough when i hit some sort of a low straight.

if the hand is 237, then it's a completely different story. i play that mofo FAST.

since you're new to these boards, i'll tell you that this hand is nicknamed "The Kuso".

[Felonius_Monk]

[JDLush]

[Kuso]

[JDLush]

Kuso, if raises mean aces then isn't it safe to figure that one of the side cards can often be a deuce or trey? If so, then your 23xx is crap for low and you are hoping to hit high with 2 cards. If you get a 2 and/or 3 then your low is blown as well. I guess I should clarify, when I say raises mean aces I am talking about any aces, i.e. an AAxx hand or an A23x, etc. Rarely will you see a hand raised preflop that does not contain at least one ace IME.

I'd be curious to see some folks stats on 23xx and 234x to see if they are all that profitable. I'm guessing they are way behind hands like A45 or A3BB. I'll post mine when I get a chance.

[januarymute]

lately I'm beginning to think that 23xx hands are for shit. maybe you need to play them to get to a reasonable VPIP so that people won't automatically assume you're playing premium hands always, but 23's are pretty fcuking worthless

[Kuso]

[Rude Dog]

I don't play 2-3 XX or worse for a raise, even late. The exception being if the XX have decent high possibility.

Why call a raise with the second nut low looking to split if you hit and lose if you don't?

Cloutier says there are no hands worth a preflop raise, Cappelletti likes them a bit more, but only if the four cards will work to scoop with a high and a low, or maybe if you have decent counterfeit protection, three or more to a wheel. If you wouldn't make the raise, you shouldn't call it.

[Phil153]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Kuso]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Phil153]

Perhaps you're right about 239T. I like to play hands that are good for semibluffing, and 239T can hit flops a lot harder than 2357, especially short handed. But maybe 239T isn't suitable for most players.

The trouble with 2357 is that you can never be confident with it. You'll almost always need an A and a 4 on the board to be in good shape, as any pairs or two pairs you catch (the most frequent outcomes) will be on low boards. You're basically playing the hand to hit infrequent straights on low boards. Those situations generally suck, because you'll rarely get money in on your good scooping boards, and when money is going in, you'll often be behind or at risk of being outdrawn.

The difference between 2357 and 235K (which I'm surprised noone mentioned) is the ability to make a strong top pair with 11 outs to 2 pair/trips in addition to a low or straight draw. It has far better high making potential than 2357, and can hit some good flops on non low boards against hands like AA, A2 or A3. It will also hold up better when money is going in on low boards, due to the presence of a stronger high/high draw. And a suited K is more valuable than suited 7. So even though you have a "dangler", a Q or K with 3 wheel cards is worth far more than a 6,7,or 8.

[JDLush]