Big Pairs Pre Flop Hold 'Em

[Johnny Hughes]

In pot limit and no limit hold 'em, I think you should move fearlessly toward getting all in before the flop with either pocket Aces of poket Kings. You play the two hands the same, very fast if you catch a re raise.

There is a huge massive dividing line between these monsters and the trouble hands of QQ,JJ. It starts with the fact that K,K only has four overcards. Q,Q has twice as many overcards. J,J has three times as many overcards. In ring games and tournaments with large stacks involved, Q,Q and J,J should raise only in the last two seats. In general they should take a cheap flop or call a raise rather than being the raiser. Do you agree or disagree??

[briachek]

I will express my amature opinion in the hopes that its correct or that someone can set me right.

I do agree that there is a big difference between QQ and down and KK/AA. I will be happy to get all my money in with AA preflop anyday, even against a couple opponents. Against many, I might not be above 50% win, but I will be better than the other guys. However, I caution about KK because sometimes a player will give you overwhelming evidence that he has AA such as a min raise from ep and then a non all in re-raise preflop. Depending on the opponent, this still might not mean AA but now you really have a decision. Although, 95% of the time, I have no problem getting all in preflop.

On occasion, which I have problems getting myself to actually do, it might help to call a big raise with KK, looking for a favorable flop (no ace, hopefully no Q, J or 10 either) and trap a guy overplaying a lesser pocket pair. Normally these hands will pay you off preflop anyway so you don't have to wait for a good flop, but this could save you if an Ace flops or if there is another caller, you can get them as well calling with top pair.

IMO, QQ is MUCH better than JJ because of how often those overcards will hit and one of the only ways you get the action you want with JJ and lower is if you hit your set when they have overpair or you hit second set and they had tptk or overpair. Otherwise, you are hurting. I would raise with QQ before the last two position, usually from any place (shows my inexperience and the quality of the people I normally play against) but I would say that raising from MP should be used too because otherwise you give drawing hands or mediocre overcards and blinds to catch two pair, overpair or solid draw. QQ doesn't hold up as well against many people and its strong enough to win without improvement a good amount of the time. I would either call a moderate raise or reraise against a weak player with QQ.

Pairs JJ - 77 maybe should be limped unless its folded to you in LP (maybe one weak limper) and you can either take the pot right there or get heads up against a weak player.

Pairs 66-22 is always a limping hand (except in ep with 22-44 with big raisers behind you) to hit a set or fold. The only time you could raise with these is extremely shorthanded play or short stacked and its an all in.

Ok, that was much longer than I thought it would be and I decided to throw my quick take on all PP. I'm a NL SNG player and in home games and normally a limit player online and B&M so my NL experience is limited. I mostly agree with Johnny but I have some differences. Please critique.

[Johnny Hughes]

[Molina]

As half my posts involve me complaining about JJ, hell I'm an expert at playing them badly, playing 6 handed they're still trouble. With QQ I'm a lot happier, I generally raise any bet, seeing whether they'll reraise, if they do I only get the money in pre flop if one of us is short stacked.

To be honest I see AA vs KK all in pre flop once or twice a day and I think I've been on the KK side more than average that I'd rather get it to the flop and then move (I know! if they have AA then I'm still beaten).

I always find a bit funny that as poker players we all hope to see AA or KK and when we do get them we either didn't win enough or can't believe we lost with them.

Molina

[TexasKowboy]

Great topic! I will raise 1,2,3 X the BB with JJ as I do any middle pair. You never want to go all in with JJ pre flop. As for QQ how many bad beats have you read where so and so went all in pre flop only to run into KK.

Before the flop JJ and QQ are horse races to a hand with an A or Kt. After the flop is when you have a big lead. You go from about 55% favorite to a 70+% favorite after the flop.

Like Molina said see the flop then push when no over cards hit the board and you will find that your stats will start climbing with these hands. You show me someone who is losing a lot of hands with JJ, QQ and even KK and I'll show you a pre flop pusher.

Also seeing a flop with a X amount the BB raise means you have to be able to let the hand go. Don't beat a losing horse to death.

In rings I like to maximize profit while minimizing lost. One bad beat with JJ or QQ can ruin a whole days work.

[Jason D]

I realize you are trying to help, but JJ is about a 2-1favorite over AT or KT pre-flop. If the hand you are up against has one overcard to your pair you are about a 2-1 favorite.


Jay