Help me understand ...

[flafishy]

... how these people can think their hands are good. I raise preflop and then I raise him on the turn when my pair hits. How could he possibly put me on anything other than AQ or KQ after the preflop raise? How can he possibly think his weak pair is going to win the pot, especially with yet another player having called the raise. Does he think I'm bluffing him, or is he just a moron? Or both?

I ask because I folded a hand earlier where I had KJs on the button, raised a couple of preflop limpers, spiked a Kxx flop. Guy in MP bet, guy in the CO called, I raised and both called. The turn was another rag and the guy check-raised me. I folded figuring him for a set or maybe a Kx two-pair. Turns out the guy had K6, only just the top pair, and I could only laugh about it.

Anybody have any clue what's in their heads?

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
9 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $96.40
UTG+1: $54.50
MP1: $35.95
MP2: $73.45
MP3: $44.40
flafishy: $110.20
Button: $57
SB: $5.60
BB: $135.40

Pre-flop: (9 players) flafishy is CO with
2 folds, MP1 calls (1.5:1), 2 folds, flafishy raises, Button folds, SB calls (4.5:1.5), BB calls (6:1), MP1 calls (7:1).

Flop: (8SB, 4 players)
SB is all-in $1.6, BB folds, MP1 calls (8.8:1), flafishy calls (9.8:1).

Turn: (5.2BB, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: 5.2BB)
MP1 bets, flafishy raises, MP1 calls (8.2:1).

River: (9.2BB, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: 5.2BB, Sidepot 1: 4BB)
MP1 checks, flafishy checks.

Results:
Final pot: 9.2BB
MP1 shows 3H QS
flafishy shows AH QD
SB shows QC 9S

[Danhdan]

Well, they sure aren't thinking about what you have. They see they hit a pair and they bet. Also, you just called the flop. The guy bet out on the turn probably believing his turn pair was good.

Now, as for their calls...abysmal. And that is why you raise with AQ in your spot against a limper. Having these people call is wonderful...stop questioning it and accept it.

Could you post the hand with your KJ?

[flafishy]

Not sure why you're suggesting that I raise the flop here behind two limpers. I would do that with a strong draw. I did think about raising, but decided I would just peel one off because I have pot odds with two overs.

I'll post the KJ hand later this evening.

I guess my real question here should be: Should I bet that river? I've been following the Sklansky/2p2 adage that there's no value in betting the river in a hand like this because you'll only get a call if you're beat. But I'm beginning to think that that ain't necessarily true, and I feel like I've lost quite a few bets in this kind of situation by just checking it down. I knew I had the best hand here.

What do you think?

[piersmajestyk]

Yeah I think you need to bet that river nearly every time here. He probably bets into you if that 8 tripped him up and he would have likely three bet you on the turn if he held a better hand than you.

[Danhdan]

[flafishy]

[Danhdan]

[MTPaid]

Cause they're idiots. Guy pulled the same crap the hand before with nothing so I guess they think we're not paying attention. I've had AQ about 10 times tonight and this is about the only time I won with it.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $99
UTG+1: $23.62
PayMeDaMoney: $35
MP2: $120.50
CO: $37.50
Button: $14.75
SB: $34.38
BB: $20

Pre-flop: (8 players) PayMeDaMoney is MP1 with
2 folds, PayMeDaMoney raises, 3 folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds, PayMeDaMoney caps, SB calls (7.5:1).

Flop: (9SB, 2 players)
SB bets, PayMeDaMoney raises, SB calls (12:1).

Turn: (6.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, PayMeDaMoney calls (7.5:1).

River: (8.5BB, 2 players)
SB bets, PayMeDaMoney raises, SB 3-bets, PayMeDaMoney calls (13.5:1).

Results:
Final pot: 14.5BB
SB Shows 3d Ks
PayMeDaMoney Shows Ad Qd

[Danhdan]

Wow, the bluff 3-bet on the river at the $1/$2 limit game. Gotta be honest, haven't seen much of that one. NIHAN.

[flafishy]

Here's that earlier hand, as promised. On review 24 hours or so later, it's obvious how I messed this one up, causing myself to overthink myself right out of the hand.

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
8 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $26.00
UTG+1: $31.40
MP1: $61.20
MP2: $66.00
flafishy: $91.20
Button: $92.00
SB: $70.00
BB: $53.40

Pre-flop: (8 players) flafishy is CO with
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls (1.5:1), 2 folds, flafishy raises, 2 folds, BB calls (4.5:1), UTG+1 calls (5.5:1).

Flop: (6.5SB, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, flafishy bets, BB calls (7.5:1), UTG+1 raises, flafishy calls (10.5:1), BB calls (11.5:1).

Turn: (6.25BB, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, flafishy folds, BB calls (7.25:1).

River: (8.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks.

Results:
Final pot: 8.25BB
BB shows 10D 8D
UTG+1 shows 7H KC

[MTPaid]

This may look like you were beat if you didn't know that UTG+1 was an idiot. I don't think you could ever fear BB in that hand.

[flafishy]

Wasn't worried about BB. UTG+1 I figured for a set, possibly two pair. But where I messed up was not reraising the flop, which I should have done.

[MTPaid]

Well what did you know about him before the hand. If you knew he played that garbage then yes you should definitely re-raise, but if you have no read don't you have to treat him as a normal player until you find out otherwise.

What kind of hand would a normal player
A) play UTG+1
B) check-raise w/ on the flop that KJ can beat?

Also, if he is going to play K7o like that, he'll probably cap the flop and you'll be no better off. I gotta believe, again without knowing anything about UTG+1, that I'm out-kicked by anything he could limp with there and check-raise me with (KQ??).

What I'm saying is that without a read I don't think you screwed up. I may have called him down though.

[flafishy]