Big Straight draws.

[briachek]

I was wondering what is the correct play with big straight draws. Lets say you have JT8X on a flop of 97X or 89TX with a 67X flop. How would you play this assuming you have no flush draws. Do you bet or raise with this kind of draw? How would you having a flush draw affect the way you play it? What if there was a flush draw and you didn't have it? Would you call a pot sized bet on the flop? Would you raise? Assuming you miss on the turn, do you check fold to any big sized bet? I know this is asking about a lot of minor changes to the same situation, but I'm not sure how to play this. Thanks

[briachek]

I forgot to mention, this is $25 PL Omaha Hi on Party

[Felonius_Monk]

Well, first thing to do is work out where you stand... how many NUT outs do you have (considering this a game of the nuts)? In the first instance, you have a tasty wrap with four 6s, three 8s, Ts and Js to make a nice nut straight. That's 13 outs. Pretty good by anyone's money. Now, how many nut outs do you have in the second situation? I'll let you try to figure that one out, obviously it's not rocket science but sometimes it takes a bit of practice!

Would you lead out with these hands? If there's a chance you can win the pot uncontested, yes. At party 25PLO, i would be less inclined to. If you have a flush draw in there too, and you think you can get heads up or reduce the competition with a pot-sized raise, you might just want to bet out to potentially "promote" your flush. The higher the flush, the better, of course, T-high flushes might not be much worth bothering with, unless you're heads up. If, however, in the first situation your other card is a suited ace, then yeah you have a monster draw and you should be shovelling money into the pot against all comers and trying to build as big a MULTIWAY pot as possible, however you see fit (this may mean leading out for the pot or making small raises to draw in weaker drawing hands and keep the pot live with as many callers as possible while you draw to about 20 nut outs.

Would you call a pot sized bet on the flop? Count the outs you have and answer that one yourself. With a flush draw out, you may be slightly more cautious if you don't hold the flush. In PLO, in a heads-up spot, there will be about 41 cards that you don't see (providing your opponent doesn't have the same draw!) after the flop so even on the turn you only need about 13 nut outs to call a pot sized bet (possibly less if you think your opponent will pay you off if you catch your hand). Generally, at Party, although most of your stack will be in after the flop, you'll still have one decent raise left so you often have implied odds to make a call heads up even with as few outs as this. Generally, I'd prefer better pot odds or a better hand though. With a straight draw with 13 outs or so up against a set/two-pair type hand at PLO25, you could call a raise, yep. If there's more than one player up against you, you're getting 3-1 on the call and so can proceed fairly comfortably. Thinking on the turn is exactly the same... providing it's a blank and it doesnt pair the board or put out a flush, you can call if you have pot odds or if there's some implied odds associated with hitting. Think about your opponent, whether he'll pay you off (at Party 25PLO he likely will do) and what your odds of hitting are (usually about 2-1 to hit, and the pot will be laying you similar odds; with the implied odds the call may be good). Beware though that straights can be death in PLO, there's often no easy answers as at any stage when you're holding a straight nearly half the deck could kill you (suited cards and open pairs). As a beginner you should only call when you're sure the odds laid to you are good, and avoid marginal situations. At 25PLO there are enough monkeys giving you money to ensure you have no need to gamble on coinflips.

Monk
xxxxx

[DODGYKEN]

One thing I would add is to be more willing to call with a straight draw on the turn than on the flop. As Monk said, when you hold a straight there are a lot of cards you don't want to see. The problem with making your straight on the turn (after calling on the flop) is that it can still be beaten on the river. For this reason I think you need to have really good odds to draw to your straight on the flop; I'd stay away from marginal situations here. Of course, if you have another draw alongside the straight draw, you should definitely be staying in. If you make your straight on the river you, of course, cannot beaten (if it's the nut straight that is!).

Martin

[briachek]

In the second situation, I have 13 outs (4 5's, 3 8's, 9's and T's) which gives me about 3 to 1 to make my straight. If there is a pot sized bet and only 1 opponent, I would have only 2 to 1 (depending if I think I can get more money from him if I hit and it holds). Heads up, it would be a marginal holding, but in multiway pots, worth calling. This is all assuming no flush draws. Am I correct with this analysis?

Say you have position and face a pot sized bet heads up on the flop, would you reraise for fold equity and getting a free card on turn (or is this just a hold em concept that doesn't have much value in Omaha?)? What about a multi way pot, would you just call and hope to hit or raise it? I've been playing holdem for a long time so I used to raising in these situation with position and I can't really remember the last time I took a passive role in ANY hand I've been in. It would seem that draws like this would put me in position to call on the flop and turn (in multiway pots) chasing this draw, assuming no danger cards hit.

[Felonius_Monk]