Flat calling with top set

[Aisthesis]

I was really glad that Anders posted a hand of this kind where both of us were sitting at the same table the other night (cf. my Raising survey thread for the hand), because I have the impression that the tricky flat-call type starts to become more frequent at the 200, and they give me trouble.

The basic problem is this: I have middle set on some kind of board with no made straight and no made flush and top set flat calls. If the turn blanks off, then I'm betting again, etc. Sometimes top set will even again flat call, usually the raise comes at that point. Or, OOP, top set may check-call (as I think was the case in the Anders hand).

I'll try to examine the pros and cons of this line against my own typical lines, but would love to hear any suggestions as to what to do against players where you've observed this:

Advantages of the slowplay:

1) I'll bet out the turn, hence, I lose more with middle set than I do to an immediate raise.

2) If I'm on a draw, I'll rep the full if the board pairs, so I lose more on that scenario. This bluff may be less viable against the top set slowplayer, I'm not sure (?). Anyhow, a flat call from this player doesn't NECESSARILY mean he has a set, as he also flat calls with draws, but a set is more likely.

Disadvantages of the slowplay:

1) Should I quad up, top set may get stacked. This is actually one spot where you can probably capitalize a lot on the read by half-potting with your quads against this player (OOP, I'll often check quads made on the turn or river, but I've been experimenting around actually with half-potting those more routinely--I think the half-pot may be a better line, actually).

2) If I'm on a draw, I get to draw for cheap, and top set isn't going to get odds to fill up. There's an additional issue here, too: If you were betting out a draw including a flush, it's not a good idea to check the flush against this player (as I often will against some players). While this player can flat call on draws as well, he's more likely to have a draw that can beat your flush than those who would have raised a set. So, I think it's a good idea to be less tricky with flushes against this player, although, if he's also the type to rep the flush here, it is possible to go for a CR at this point, too, particularly if you have the nut flush.

3) If I'm on middle set, I may also win the hand by repping some straight draws. Say we have a board of K86, and I have 88 of some kind. I bet the flop and get a flat call from this kind of player. I'll generally jsut assume that the drawer has 97 on that board, so I'll continue to bet into a 4 or a 7 here. Now, there are a few things this kind of player can do. I think they may sometimes try a mini-raise here with top set, just to find out if you really have the straight. And that's should still be worth a flat call with your middle set. The thing is, against this guy, you don't know whether he just made his straight or whether he's just testing to see if you have it and you really don't even want to fill up. So, I'm really not sure what to do here.

I guess a mini-raise is a rather bizarre play with the straight in this situation. So, it might not be a bad idea to call, then fire half-pot again on any river that doesn't pair the board (unless you quad up). It's a pretty sizeable bluff to make, but it may be a good one against this kind of player. Opinions?

Well, so much for now. Hope to hear more about how others deal with this type. I also think I'll try another thread for some situations where the flat call might be a good play.

[Ojingo]

[Anders]

Not really a top set hand but an alternative middle set line that I tried today:

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
9 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $89.15
UTG+1: $99.80
MP1: $124.85
MP2: $195
Hero: $118.45
CO: $57.70
Button: $153.15
SB: $187.95
BB: $191.15

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP3 with
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO raises to $4, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: ($26, 6 players)
SB bets $26, 3 folds, Hero calls, CO folds.

Turn: ($78, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $78, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: $78 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: $78


Like/Dislike?

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[Aisthesis]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Aisthesis]

[Anders]

[Stoneburg]

This hand happened in tonights session:

I limp in EP with AAJ4s and 123 behind. 7 people to the flop (a bit less than average). Flop comes A98, LAG bets out pot, gets a caller and I raise pot to 37.50 and get an overcaller, original bettor folds but first caller calls again.

Turn Q.

I'm thinking "¤&%#!!"

I'm sure someone has the straight, most likely mr Super Caller, the man with the fantastic ability to never let go of any draw (behind me). There's 120 in the pot and I have a little over 80 left. Fuggit, I push. Of course he calls with his fabulous JTxx (oesd+nothing on the flop) and kills me.

I'm thinking results would have been better had I just flat called the flop, original LAG bettor would probably bet again with a low set or two-pair, and mr Super Caller is so passive he'll either just call or make a small enough bet/raise to give me odds (and pay me off of course).

[Felonius_Monk]