What do I do with this AK?

[iceman5]

Im playing $2/$4 limit at Party. Its folded to me in MP and I raise with [Kd]
The SB 3 bets and the BB cold calls. I thought about capping but I didnt like the BB's cold calling so I just called.
The pot is $18. the flop comes [9s][3s]. SB bets, BB raises. Hmm..Ok, Im new at this limit stuff. I cant see folding, but the BB still scares me. I called and the SB called
Pot is $30. The turn is the . SB checks, BB bets, I call, SB calls.
Pot is $42. The river is the . SB checks, BB bets. I call, SB folds.
BB has KK and I win a really nice pot.

Comments? BB has to think one of us (me or SB ) has an ace doesnt he? His play looks foolish to me.

[TheUnknownPlayer]

iceman,

Yes, the BB's play looks foolish but that's where the profit is at these limits. Let me describe what I believe to be his thinking:

pre-flop there is no problem with his play
post flop: SB bets...
"Maybe he's trying to steal this pot. I have to find out where I'm at so I'll raise."
turn:
"They both just called, maybe they don't have an ace after all and I have the best hand. I can't give them a free card. The SB checked to me... Great! My Kings are good! I should bet."
river:
"They both just called again, I must have the best hand! They were probably on flush draws and missed. Maybe someone has a weak ace ... unlikely but I'll bet just in case cause they shall surely throw away after I've shown so much stregnth throughout the hand."
post hand analysis:
"Damn, that lucky sob... and I had the best hand pre-flop. Why do I always lose with kings?"

I would have check-called the whole way too.

[briachek]

IMO, the BB made one of the biggest mistakes in Limit, he only called preflop with KK, maybe trying to trap, maybe worried about AA and then play aggressively when the one card he didn't want to hit, flopped. I've seen people limp preflop with big PP and then start betting and raising on a flop that contains overcards. This just seems to be the ultimate stupid play.

You played it the same way I would have. I would have gone into check/call mode knowing full well that a lot of times I will not win the pot but the pot had gotten large enough that the few times I do win, it would make up for the times you lose.

BTW, what did the SB end up having since he 3 bet you preflop? I would guess either AQ or QQ.

Iceman, I'm curious how you would have treated it if this was a no limit hand. Lets say you make the standard raise preflop with AK and get raised a moderate amount by the sb and the BB calls. I've always heard that you try not to lose your stack on tptk. Just goes to show the big difference between the two. In limit, you just have to be right some of the time to be profitable, but in NL, you should to be right most of the time, not just some. Is this a good assessment? I know I'm oversimplifying it.

[TheUnknownPlayer]

There are reasons for raising - one of the reasons is to limit the field - a raise here will not accomplish this in this spot. Too, the BB raising really defines his hand as either AA or KK. So I think a cold call is fine here. There's one other reason however, you want your opponents to make a mistake - often when you raise before the flop you are putting more money in the pot increasing the pot odds your opponents have to call you. If they would have called you incorrectly before - they now very well may be correct in calling simply because you raised. For instance, let's say the BB 4-bet - the SB would be correct to call one more bet getting 11:1 on the call. Now the flop comes Q93 and the SB had AQ and he bets into the BB with KK. Iceman folds and it's 1-bet to the SB to win 14-bets. The Fundemental Theorum of Poker tells us that anytime your opponent plays a hand differently than he would if he could see your cards you gain.. lets see what the SB should do.

Let's say the BB flips over his hand at this time showing you that he had KK - is a call correct? The SB has 5 outs of 45 unknown cards remaining or 8:1 against while the pot is offering 15:1. So a call is justified and correct here. After the call there is 16 bets and the turn comes an offsuit deuce. The SB checks and the BB bets. The SB is now getting 18:2 pot odds or about 9:1 and will make his hand 5 times in 44 or still about 8:1 making a call correct once again. So we find that even if the SB knew what the BB had - he would still be correct to call.

Now let's suggest that the BB didn't raise. There would be 9 bets on the flop. The SB would bet again and the BB would correctly raise and when the raise got back to the SB the SB would be getting 12:1 on the same 8:1 shot. Clearly a call. On the turn the BB bets again and now the SB would be offered pot odds of 14:2 or 7:1 on an 8:1 shot... no longer does the SB have the correct pot odds to call (yes I know that one could bring implied odds into this and justify a call - but let's leave it at that for the sake of this argument and say that your opponent has correctly put you on AQ and would not call on the river if either showed up).

If the SB was going to call regardless - then you want to create a situation in which he is incorrect to call - keeping the pot smaller accomplished this.

[piersmajestyk]

I like you just calling the 3 bet instead of capping preflop because you are going to have to hit to win this one. I also would have just called the big blinds raise here on the flop with the intent of raising on the turn. If he has AA here then I am just going to have to give him another bet. Just calling the turn here with this board is a weak play. With the small blind also in the hand and his actions to date I would put him or the big blind on another Ace and that just doesn't leave room for the other player to be holding AA so you almost HAVE to be ahead in this spot or tied with another AK. Raise without fear on the turn. I would have been MUCH more hesitant if the flop would have come K high with the big blinds three bet preflop but the ace is great in my opinion.

[briachek]

Unknown, I do understand the odds (though not nearly as much as you). My thoughts are that the typical player doesn't know about the odds so he would be calling you down either way so you might as well make the pot bigger in case you win. Also, if he capped from the BB, he might be able to get a good player like Iceman to drop his AK because he is playing so strongly with the ace of the flop, he likely had AA.

But anyway, my problem wasn't really with the guy only calling with KK preflop rather than raisng. That's fine if he chooses to do that. My problem was with him becoming aggressive after the flop when the ace hit. The only way he could win at this point is if both players were playing big PP and missed the ace as well. Iceman cold called two bets on the flop and the other guy didn't fold either. Its possible that no one has an ace, one might be on a spade draw while one is on a big PP that they can't drop either but I would have likely given this up on the flop or turn if I had the KK.

Also, after looking over the hand again, I think I would have played it a little differently than Iceman. I probably would have 3 bet on the flop. If anyone capped it, I would know I was behind for one more small bet.

[iceman5]

Briachek, the SB folded so I dont know what he had. Its hard to say what I would do if that was a NL hand because the bet amounts would vary greatly, but since I got reaised I would be more willing to play for my stack there than normal. Someone who cold calls my raise and then comes alive during the hand is more likely to have a set than someone who reraised preflop.

[briachek]

I missed that the SB folded on the river. sorry.

[Nortonesque]

His postflop play looks rather foolish to me. Cold-calling preflop is OK, but at these limits I'd be more inclined to raise with KK. I would have put him on AK or AQ, given his play.

I agree with Piers -- reraise the turn.

[ace]

Not capping preflop is fine with me. Your hand is strong enough for a 3 bet on the flop however. The first bet could easily be a flush draw and the raise is very likely to be a weaker ace. I think 3 betting for info is key on this hand. If you get capped you can consider folding on the turn.
If you get called I would feel pretty good about my hand but the key is with the flush draw you need to raise here to charge the draw..if its there, the maximum. Not 3 betting the flop is a big mistake IMO. The flop is when to find out where you stand while its cheap.
The KK player absolutely should cap prefllop for value here and should check fold his KK on the flop. He bungled this hand gloriously.

[iceman5]

[ace]

Well this is 2-4 party. Of course he would call Axs here. But look at his play. He cold calls two raises from the BB and is aggressive on the flop. What about this flop should worry AK? If he's got A9 or A4s (which are possible from a loose 2-4 player) so be it. IF he caught a set fine, this is limit. You aren't going to lose your stack here. For all the times your AK is beaten here it will many times over be the winning hand.
But I think the main point of the hand is the SB and the two spades on the board. He mucked at the river when the flush draw missed. So the correct play at the flop is to 3 bet to make a possible flush draw pay. At this point this will charge the guy betting into a draw 2 more SB's at the flop; and even though his call is correct, it will be less correct for 2SBs than for one. .
This is a classic limit hand where you have to raise to protect what MIGHT be the winning hand. Much like party 50NL tables where an AK hand hits..especially when it hits an ace, you just can't lay this hand down too often because so many times your opponents don't listen when you tell them you have AK. Certainly there are times to fold it when it hits; but this is most definitely not one of them.
Another interesting way to play this would be to call the flop bet as you did. Then if the spade misses as it did to pop the turn. Many people bet draws in limit; so if the SB checks the turn; the BB bets; your hand is worth a turn raise and you just made it close to incorrect for the SB to continue his flush draw. I haven't added up the bets but he's probably correct if he has a spade draw to continue because it was 3 bet preflop; but its stilll charging him the most you can. This is all you can do in Limit; and it also costs the BB an extra SB for being an idiot with KK. If you get 3 bet on the turn I lay this down most of the time.

[odogg]

[NWCougar]

[Xaston]