NL Hand

[odogg]

[iceman5]

[briachek]

[tetsuo]

[iceman5]

[briachek]

Well I don't know who he is so some of that is lost on me. However, what also made me think the guy with the Q4 is the worst is because he kept betting the minimum everywhere. Min raise preflop, min bet on flop, min check raise on turn and min bet on river. Betting $2 into $300+ pot. Its not only terrible, but lazy too. He can't even type in his bet or slide the bar to make a real bet or raise. At least Twin-Caracas check raised you all in instead another 100 on the turn.

Its all terrible and I'm a limit holdem player so people can't show how bad they really are than at a NL table when betting is structured.

[Bob314]

Well I guess I'm gonna spoil the party here and say that I think odogg made a horrible misplay on the turn here. You raised preflop and you got called. Your opponent made a weak bet into you on the flop, you put in a strong raise, and he still just called. The board pairs on the turn, he checks, and you DON'T TAKE THE FREE CARD?! I think you leading $50 into this pot was a HUGE mistake. You peel off a free card here, fill up on the river, and bust him when you are ahead instead of playing into a BLATANT check raise. I could feel the check raise coming before I even read a sentance of the turn coverage. Why did you bet here? You say you are leary because he plays wild, isn't it easy to see how he could have flopped a set or 2 pair here? I know it can be hard in the middle of the hand to slow down and think these things through, I made the same mistake with an overpair myself today, but you have to be rational and can't let A-A cloud your judgement.

[briachek]

I do see your thinking in this Bob but I will just say one thing about the check raise. I felt the check raise coming because almost EVERY hand that gets posted that needs analysis has a checkraise on the turn. However, with this guy's betting patterns (don't know if he saw him bet much like this earlier) but he has NO IDEA what he is doing and is likely to be a fool. Not every min betting and raising players is hiding a monster.

[Bob314]

You make a good point about posts usually including check raises, but if you look at a lot of those posts the people either lay down to the check raises or they call and are beaten. Sure the guy was betting like a moron, but what I was thinking of and putting a lot of emphasis on was how he minimum bet the flop and then smooth called a $40 raise. That's a pretty sizeable raise to *just* call. It is incredibly dangerous not to give this guy credit for some kind of hand here.

[iceman5]

Heres an interesting concept that is worth considering. If you folded every time you got raised (instead of calling the rest of bets throught out the hand), you iwll come out ahead.

Of course you cant fold EVERY time because your opponents will catch on, but I promise you that if you keep a tally sheet beside your computer and you keep track of results of all your hands starting at the point you get raised, you'll be shock ed at how much you lose.

Example....You have KJ. The pot is $4 and you bet $4 into a flop of Jxx. You get called. The pot is $12. You bet $7 at the turn and get raised another $7. The pot is now $26.
So if you call this $7 and then call his inevitable $20 bet at the river and lose...you count that as -$27. If you win the hand you get to count the $26 that you wouldve folded plus the $7 and $20 bets you called so you are +$53. Make sense?

I have done this and I promise you that you will come out ahead folding all hands where the strength of your hand is not greatly disguised (2 pair from the blind or a set).

If you get raised when a flush card hits and you have the ut flush that doesnt count. Basically you only count hands where when the raise comes, you think...oh crap...am I ahead or not?

I was taught this by a VERY good NL player named Scott Francis. As a matter of fact, this point is too valuable to only be posted here. I think I'll make it a featured article.

Try it and report your results back after a while.

[briachek]

You see this all the time in limit so I am translating it over a little. Once a guy decides to play a hand out, he will pay anything til the end. Obviously, there would be less of these at NL tables because it would be even more costly but i guess there are some out there.

[kennyg]

odogg...

with the pot as big as it was....i'm not sure how much money you had left... but you should not be value betting this river. an all-in is your play. He can't justify folding a Q4 here...or even something like KK orQQ just because that ace hit the river. There is too much in this pot for him to fold...so trying to "extract" money isn't the proper play in my opinion. allin baby!