More from my 2/5 NL session - biggest pot of the night

[iceman5]

I said in another post that if UnknownPlayer and I ever disagree that you should take HIS advice not mine. Thats how much faith I have in his play.....BUT....nevertheless I do disagree with him here.

I agree that the raise with 87s is brilliiant. As a matter of fact the latest "hand of the week" the I put on the front page uses this exact concept.

I also agree with TUP that the BB would call with a huge variety of hands because its heads up with another monster stack. Thats why its so dangerous when you have a monster stack and so does he (and hes pretty good obviously).

Where I disagree is where he said that only 1 in 100 players would bet QQ on that flop and then bet it again at the turn. Thats exactly what I wouldve done with QQ. Mad Genius didnt have the nuts, but he did bet the flop with 2 pair and bet it again with a very well disguised full house, so its a similar situation.

I also wouldve folded where TUP said he wouldve called. We all know now that the guy had a queen. I dont see any way in hell hes going all in there with AQ. Theres just way too good a chance that Genius has AA or KK and will call. 95% of the players I know would call there with AA or KK.

I do know one thing for sure. The opponent here is a guy to avoid like the plague. Hes a hell of a player in my opinion.

[Mad Genius]

TheUnknownPlayer


Again, it is entirely possible the he only pretended to have QQ, but I do wonder how many people would be ballsy enough to go allin on that river with Qx. While I play tight, I am definately not weak-tight and he should have known this. If you were in the same position, would you consider making the same play? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.

Also, if you read the other hand that I posted, he did check the river with a lower full boat. He isn't a total aggressive maniac, which does lead me to believe that he had the queens here.

In the long run, if I make this fold everytime, I will probably be folding the better hand a good number of times. But I know I can feel good about folding a good hand when I think there is a decent chance I am beat, particularly for this much money.

And finally, I also disagree with you when you say not 1 in 100 would bet with QQ. I think Matt Damon said it in Rounders when he was playing KGB - against bad players he would hardly bet a good hand and try to set a trap, but against a good player he would overbet the pot, trying to make it seem like he's stealing it. With deep stacks like that, I think the best way to play a monster is by building the pot early on so that the pot will be big enough by the river. I think that's the only way you can take someone else's stack if you both have deep stacks. If he's got a good hand (overpair, lower set), you'll probably receive action - and if he doesn't, then slowplaying probably won't do much good anyway.

[TheUnknownPlayer]

iceman,

I'm glad to hear that you would bet QQ on that flop and again on the turn - it's the right move but I maintain that the vast majority of players would not - it probably contributes to why you are a winning player and most players are not. Mad Genius did bet the flop but there's a difference between flopping bottom two and flopping top set. The latter is a lot less likely to get drawn out on (5% vs 14%). Too, MG raised with 8s7s precisely because he felt his opponent would put him on AA or KK - let's give MG the benefit of the doubt and figure that he knew what he was doing and that's exactly what his opponent put him on. I agree that he wouldn't have called pre-flop with AQ or even KQ but he certainly might with QJ or QT or even Q9s...I would have. There are three ways the guy could have QQ, and 27 hands he could have QJ, QT or Q9s. I think you are right that 95% of players would call with AA or KK in this spot but MG isn't just any player...he's the player who, just an hour earlier, checked on the river with a KJ on a board of KJK7A with $800 in front of him. I believe that 95% of the players I know would bet here too - to my mind it shows MG to be a good enough player to be able to make a tough laydown - and I would have put the question to him.

Mad Genius,

First of all I hope you don't mind me shortening your name to MG - I'm a 2-finger typist here You asked if I would consider making the same play ie. going all-in with Qx... yep, against you in that spot with the way the betting went - absolutely. That's not an insult - I think you play well - your thinking through the hand was more advanced than most players at that level - I'd seriously consider moving to those stakes permanently but you can make a move against a good player - and so I would have tried against you. I would have no choice at this point in our history (if I were playing against you) but to put you on AA or KK and I think your call on the turn indicated a thoughtful enough approach that I could get you off the hand - and I would have tried.

As for the other hand when he checked the underboat - to me that's not the same thing. First of all, I suspect that he would have called a bet on the river in this spot. Second, KJ is a legit hand for you to have - so is AK... there are options out there for you to have - but I still think he was looking for you to bet the river (although he would have preferred a rag to fall)

You also said, "With deep stacks like that, I think the best way to play a monster is by building the pot early on so that the pot will be big enough by the river. I think that's the only way you can take someone else's stack if you both have deep stacks." I couldn't agree more... I just don't see that quality of thinking from most $2/$5 players. You played this guy - I didn't so your read on him may be more accurate than mine and I'll defer to your personal experience of having been there and played him but I assure you that I would have played a bluff (and Qx is a bluff) exactly the way he played that hand against someone who wouldn't bet the river (correctly mind you) an hour ago with a big boat.

Another way you could have played it though was like so: When on the turn you bet $150 and were raised $250 more - if I had any remaining doubts I would have popped him again - maybe another $250. I don't believe he would go all-in at this point if he had QQ, I suspect that he smooth calls - if he goes all-in here I'm calling - but if he smooth calls and bets the river I'm gone.

Anyway, you both may be right - who knows... just my two cents worth and that's about all it's worth cause we didn't get to see his hand

TUP

[kennyg]

I thought the rule was show one, show all??

Shows how much I know about live games If that is the rule..I would have demanded to see his other card.

[Nortonesque]

[Bob314]

[k3nt]

The description of this hand and the way it went down had my heart in my throat. It was amazing even to read about, let alone being there. Wow. Way, way, way cool sh*t.

That said, I agree that your laydown looks like a little MUB syndrome + a little scared money syndrome.

Put it this way. DIvide all the $$$s at stake by 10, or even 100. If it's only costing you $120 or $12, you make the call -- don't you? I mean, at lower levels you can just tell yourself "This is a hand I am willing to lose my stack on." You played tricky and unpredictable poker preflop and the flop and turn hit you perfectly. You have a full house on a board where your opponent can have NO IDEA what your starting hand is. Chances are, he is underestimating your hand when making his bets. If he caught the higher boat, you lose -- so be it.

At any rate, I could see myself saying that to myself at lower levels. But for a thousand bucks plus, I'm scared out of my pants, and I'm laying it down -- and then I am quitting the game right then because I realize I'm playing out of my comfort zone.

Just my (very) humble opinion of course. Thanks again for sharing the hand.

[iceman5]

The difference is that hes not calling off whats left of his stack at the river. Hes calling off another 2 1/2 stacks at the river if he makes this call.

Thats where the whole point of being pot committed comes in, in a lot of hands. Hes not pot committed here and to risk 2 1/2 stacks is more than just a big deal. Its a HUGE deal.

One more point. I would never show your cards in that situation. Now people will be trying to bluff you off hands like theres no tomorrow and your going to have to make more tough calls because of it. On the other hand, I think the other guys showing ONE queen was a genius move.

[Nortonesque]

[Mad Genius]

[TheUnknownPlayer]

[Mad Genius]

[cholo loco]

[kennyg]

[iceman5]