Difficult draws

[Aisthesis]

With "difficult draws," what I'm really talking about are draws that are obviously quite strong, but when you start looking more closely, there aren't a lot of nut outs. They can be particularly difficult to play OOP (for me, anyway) and when there's some stack-depth left.

Oj's 9876 with 9-high hearts on a board of T75 with 2 hearts is one of these.

Another is a hand I had last night, which doubled me up. The play of my hand was pretty straightforward, I think, but it has some similar features to Oj's. What I had was 79TJ with diamond draw on a board of AT8r. I had raised PF, fired the flop to checks, fired a 4h turn (making heart draw that I didn't have) and then got check-raised (by AA), called for my last $150 or so (pot was then $630, so this was an obvious call imo) and won with a non-nut straight on the river.

On this hand, I have 16 straight outs on the flop (and a pair), but really only a 6 or a 7 as nut outs (7 of them, so pretty horrible), and the turn makes it even worse. I still don't have any problem with my play, given position, the checks, and the ability to rep AA (which doesn't work too well for the specific opponent who has that hand himself, but everyone else will definitely think that). I'm dominated here by KQJ9 with hearts, although I do at least have a pair against that hand (which probably puts me not in quite such bad shape).

Oj's hand I think gives more nut outs, but let's count: The nuts are only a 4, 6 and J for 11. Can't remember if the suits were such that some of these made a straight flush, but if not, none of the flush cards are to the nuts, and that would put it at only 8 true nut outs.

The general question is simply how to play hands like this.

Here's my suggestion for comment and critique:

First, they're definitely worth a bet or a call but not worth a raise. You also can't be terribly excited if you get raised but (since most players only raise sets or are so LAG-ish that you may already be ahead) probably still have to call on both.

Then, with position, you can then assess the turn a lot more easily. OOP, I think you almost have to bet your hand if you make even a non-nut draw. If you're dead, you're just dead. Ideally, there would be enough stack-depth to get away from it if you're beat. Also, it's worth noting that even a decent opponent who does have you beat upon hitting your straight or dodgy flush, really has to raise if you've bet out on the flop since you also may well have a set here (or at least I may).

So, I guess what I'm really getting at is this: It's really important to distinguish between dominating draws and just "good" draws (which are often also in the "difficult" category). On the good ones, you'd really like to have only a full bet going in on the flop, and imo it's better to be the bettor. Normally (barring a lot of fold equity), raise or CR only the dominating ones. Finally, on the good ones, I think you still have to bet your non-nut hand if you make it. If you're beat, you're beat. But it's better, if possible, to keep the pot such that you didn't put in your entire stack to find out.

[pokerzen]

[Ojingo]

[Aisthesis]

[Aisthesis]

Not sure where to post this, but here's what I got on odds:

Your hand is in truly horrible shape vs. Jh9d8d7h with same pair (bigger kicker) at 4.6:1. But that's the only kind of hand I could find that has you really hurting.

AA with flush draw and no blockers to your straight is a coinflip (51-49 for AA).

J986 with flush draw to J is decent favorite but still only 1.7:1 (63-37).

What I also discovered is that JT98 with flush draw to J is simply impossible due to your holdings and the board (Th is on the board, and the other 2 hearts are in your hand).

Also, even TsTcAh2h is only 1.8:1 favorite--presumably bigger if there are blockers or splitters on some of your straight outs.