What do you think of this hand?

[GooperMC]

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with , , , .
5 limpers, I raise, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, All limpers call.

Flop: , , (8 players)
BB bets, 2 folds, 3 calls, I raise, Button calls, BB calls, everybody else calls.

Turn: (6 players)
BB check, UTG bets, 1 call, 1 fold, I call, Button calls, BB calls

River: (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, folded to me, I call, BB calls.

Final Pot:
Obviously I loose

Let me take you though my thinking street by street.

Pre-Flop:
This table has been crazy loose pre-flop so I am expecting everyone to call my raise. I am thinking that if 7 people see this flop there is no way that I have less then 1/7th of the PE. Also building a pot to draw at later or stealing the button wouldn’t be bad.

Flop: 16.5 SB
Since the pot is getting large I really don’t expect anyone to fold to my raise. However it may earn me a free turn.

Turn: 14.25BB
I like the turn and really wished my free card play worked. However the pot is getting big and I now have 2 draws to the nuts so I call.

River: 19.25 BB
I think this is the most crying call I have ever made. I think it is almost impossible that my KK will hold up but I am getting more then 20:1 so I called.

Obviously the result wasn't what I was looking for but I think that I played it pretty well thought-out, what do you guys think?

[euri10]

I think you played it fine except on the river I think, UTG bets into you whereas you raise the street before, that's scary.
I don't undestand all the people who call your raise on the flop ...

[Felonius_Monk]

Don't like your raise on the flop. That low decimates your equity to the point that you're drawing to half the pot, so raising it up here isn't much use. If someone has a hand you won't get a free turn, if they don't, then you won't. I can't see how raising will get you the river for free.

Turn call and river calls are straightforward, of course, and I don't mind your preflop raise. Personally, I don't raise high only hands, but with 5 limpers, position, and a premium high hand, you could do worse.

Monk
xxxxx

[briachek]

where does it say its H/L?

[Felonius_Monk]

a) It's Gooper, and he plays limit hi/lo
b) Anyone who plays limit omaha high is a serious glutton for punishment.

Monk
xxxxx

[GooperMC]

[Felonius_Monk]

Never say never

However, high only hands have amazingly little equity even in quite large multiway pots, in MANY cases. Good high hands almost always have equity to see a flop, because of the implied odds and the ease of folding if the miss, obviously you know that. However, they're rarely really an equity favourite, or perhaps I should say LIKELY to be enough of an equity favourite (given you don't know what your opposition holds) to make it significantly +EV to raise them up. There are, I guess, always exceptions - you rightly point out here that your hand is PROBABLY a slight money favourite with this many players in the pot, so it's not a bad move to raise it.

That said, EVEN in this pot, if you put out a couple of random hands against your AKKQds you'll find you're only a percent or two of equity ahead of the average, in most cases. Increase the number of hands and you (presumably) increase the number of midrange garbage cards, and you may increase your "lead" over the average 8-handed equity by a few more %. If you have something like a 15-20% equity in an 8-handed pot like this, then it's got to be a good move.

Like most rules, it's not a hard and fast rule but it's simply the case in O8 that it's almost never correct to raise a high-only hand preflop. The only exceptions would be when you have some chance of stealing the blinds, when you are advertising or trying to set someone up for some sort of macrogame play or when there's a ton of limpers and you hold something seriously nutty on the high side, like AAQTds or something. You USUALLY need a lot of other midrange hands in the pot for your nutty high end features to be worth a raise, which means a lot of loose limpers.

SO, as I said I can see a good argument for a raise here and as I also said I think it's a decent play. I might have done the same there.

Just making the point that, as a rule, high only hands in O8 limit are weaker than you might think, although the good ones are almost always playable (even calling a couple of bets cold) and in very, VERY rare circumstances a raise can be decent preflop.

You should note that high only hands should only be raised for this reason in late position; it would be horrible to push one in MP, get two calls from the EP players with decent hands and lose two players in LP who had ragged A3 and A4 hands - these wouldn't threaten your high and would've put two more bets in between them to chase the other end of the pot with you only making half the preflop investment to build the same pot.

But you knew all that anyways suffice to say, I don't believe there's any "secret" to why many decent players say never to raise high hands; like most rules in poker, or life, there ARE exceptions, but they're so few that usually it makes a good rule of thumb not to raise these holdings. The only time I do is when I'm stealing blinds; even in the hand you described I would PROBABLY have just called preflop, but I would concede there is a very good argument to raise.

Monk
xxxxx

[euri10]

mmmm I change my answer if it's O8

[GooperMC]

[Felonius_Monk]

Sorry, that makes no sense

However, the argument that your hand is (in EV terms) a favourite, and therefore worthy of a raise, is a fair one and one I would agree with. Stick with the simple answer and don't try to complicate your poker thinking with convolution.

You were 100% right the first time, your hand warrants a raise, in THIS spot, not by much, but I think your play was perfectly well thought out and well executed.

Monk
xxxxx

[GooperMC]

[Felonius_Monk]

No problem, I'm learning here too ... As I said, routinely I usually wouldn't raise that hand (actually I might on a table with about 8 limpers who play loose post flop!) but in this case I think it's clear that it's (marginally) the right play, and I think your first argument (that you rate to be better than average in EV terms with this hand and so many limpers, IF they all call) was an ideal reason to put another bet in there.

I don't really think implied odds comes far into your thinking here, in terms of whether to raise or not, I was merely pointing out that that's often one of the benefits of a high only hand (like a small pocket pair in holdem); they're easy to get away from if you miss, and can win decent sized pots when you hit!

Interesting stuff anyhow.

Monk
xxxxx