Draws and Semibluffing

[AQpoker]

Hi All,

I have some questions and although there are basic I am a PLO newbie and cant answer them myself. I would appreciate it if some experienced player could answer them.

1) What is your general philosophy with draws when you are in late position and everybody checks to you?
a) I bet under most situations as semibluff
b) I like to get a free card with smaller/non-Nut draws and bet the big/nutty ones
c) i almost always take a free card
d) it depends too much on the situation (board, Nr. of opponents, outs etc.)

Suppose everbody checks to me on the button. THe board is somewhat unthreatening like Kd6d4c.

1) What is my move here with a non-nut flush draw?
a) almost always check a non Nut flush and get a free card
b) if you are heads up or 3-handed it is ok to bet
c) if you are HU or 3-handed and have something extra like a gutshot you can bet
d) you can nearly always bet, even against a ton of people
e) depends (pls explain)

2) What is my move here with the nut flush draw?
a) almost always check get a free card
b) if you are heads up or 3-handed it is ok to bet
c) if you are HU or 3-handed and have something extra like a gutshot you can bet
d) you can nearly always bet, even against a ton of people
e) depends (please explain)

3) Does the board make a difference (assuming it is not paired) when i hold the flush draw?
a) a big big difference. Every board with even a chance to a straight draw is bad
b) somewhat of a difference. The board shouldnt be too drawheavy/dangerous
c) the board is not so important as you think, because every big straight draw would have bet in front of you and every small straight draw will fold to your bet

4) Is it ok to bet/call with draws out of position? Suppose rather deep stacks and a nut draw with doesnt get the right pot odds but is pretty close (like 10 or 12 Outs)
a) No, in early position in a multiway pot you should only bet draws which are big enough to get it all-in
b) wtf, only noobs bet a weak draw in early position
c) only if you think your opponent is a donkey and/or has a weak hand. Generally it is very bad to draw out of position. You should generally fold to the reraise except in rare circumstances
d) it is bad to get raised but it is even worse to constantly c/f. Generally you can bet a weak draw and call infrequent raises behind you because they indicate a hand with a lot of payoff potential like top set, but if you constantly get raised/the table is very aggro you should not bet out in the first place and you should fold to the raise. So all in all it depends on the table dynamics.
e) it is ok to bet/fold because you pick up the pot a decent amount of the time and it is not worth drawing if raised
f) it is ok to bet/call because you have some foldequity and if your opponent raises you you have the implied odds to call even Out of Position.
g) it is ok to bet/call with hidden straight draws but you shouldnt bet flush draws

Maybe my answers are confusing but i hope we get a good discussion.

[Ojingo]

These are good questions, but as always a lot depends on the type of opponents you're facing and the game dynamics. There are some factors that always play, such as number of opponents, your image and the tendencies of your opponent(s) to call with certain possible hands, to checkraise, to float, to slowplay, etc. Especially in shorthanded games and HU there is also a lot of metagame in that you have to bet a variety of hands when checked to and that you have to make sure that your opponent cannot tell from your bet whether it is a weak or strong made hand, a big or a small draw, or a complete bluff.

Ii'll try to give some answers assuming that we are playing say 6 handed in a vacuum, i.e. against unknown opponents and with no considerations about table dynamics; however, there is one really important factor on which all depends even more, namely relative stack sizes. To illustrate this point, assume that you have a so-so draw (say 6 outs). If the pot is very small (say limped pot, 3 players) then you can always take a stab, because not much is lost when you get raised off your hand. However, if the pot is big, and a bet would put say 30% of your effective stack in, then you want to think twice before you bet since you have to fold to a raise. But if the pot is so big (or the effective stacks are so small) that you have way less than a potsized bet left, then you may just want to semibluff allin if you think the combination of folding equity plus your actual equity against a hand that may call you is positive.
One concept which always applies is pure equity: if your draw is so strong that you would have called a potsized bet to begin with, then you should just pot it yourself. So those draws are really not the issue, since you're not (semi-)bluffing, you're betting for value.

As for question 2) I think my general philosophy at 6max is to bet all reasonably strong draws to the nuts, in almost any position.
In position, I tend to check weaker draws more when I am facing opponents who will checkraise a lot with both strong hands and air. Out of position, I will also check weaker draws (sometimes intending to fold) more often, but I balance that by checkraising stronger draws (which, of course, I need to do in order to be able to checkraise my top sets etc.).
All this is a matter of frequencies which you can adapt over the course of play. So maybe I start out by betting 60% of the time with a bare nut flush draw, but when I find that I get checkraised too often I have to reconsider this (and adapt by either checking behind more, or felting the hand more if I feel the opposition is checkraising with marginal holdings).

Last to act I will typically bet the nut flush draw regardless of the number of opponents. The worst that can happen is that there is a checkraise and that everyone else folds, but generally this is an excellent chance to build a big pot.

For question 1) things are more subtle, an in a big multiway pot I will often check behind with non-nut draws to see what develops and to keep the pot manageable. This is another important concept: if you're involved in hands which may be second best, don't escalate the pot, especially against decent opponents.
This changes quite a bit in shorthanded games where you can also be more aggressive with non-nut draws.
Another important concept/consideration is cleaning up outs: if you think that the opposition will fold a higher flush draw to a potsized bet, then it may well be worth the investment, especially if you have a combination draw. If you have, say, 6 nut outs to the straight and 9 outs to a medium flush, then you may want to consider betting in order to get someone to fold a higher flush draw. Of course, it depends on the type of opponents whether they will actually do so.

As for 3) I think you got it the wrong way around. If I'm betting my nut flush draw I love to get called by a straight draw, especially if I'm last to act. Indeed, this puts money in the pot; some of their outs are tainted and if the flush hits they may even try to represent it. Keep in mind that there are several good things that can happen: first, you may simply win the pot with your bet. Second, you may get a ton of callers, in which case you put in money in the pot as a money favorite, so you earned Sklansky $$. Third, you may get a call from someone who is also drawing, and then you may steal the pot on a blank turn, or bet 1/2 pot when the board pairs.

If the board is completely dry I will often still bet, but be much more worried about a flat call which now may mean that someone is "waiting for the safe turn" with top set, or playing top two or a smaller set cautiously. This means that I will usually not continue betting the turn, but take my free card then (in which case a good opponent can probably outplay me on a blank river or a board pair).

Question 4) is really complicated and depends on a huge amount of things. All the above considerations about value, cleaning up outs, board texture, etc. still apply, but you're at a disadvantage because of your bad position. Generally with a decent draw you don't want to get raised off your hand. Also, you don't want to bet, get called, and not know what to do on a blank turn. (For this there are solutions, such as checkraise all in against an aggressive player, but these are not good for lower limit games I think). Small draws in multiway pots I will just check and only call if I get the right odds. Huge draws I will either bet or checkraise, for reasons given earlier. Medium draws I sometimes lead out with if I think I have reasonable folding equity, but usually go by the odds again. Really it is the combination of folding equity and actual equity of your hand versus potential calling hands which dictates your play here. In addition, you should typically also consider your implied odds which can be quite good against people who will automatically take a stab if you check when your draw hits.

These are just a few basic thoughts, and there are really a lot of factors to balance here. Maybe others can chime in?

[AQpoker]

[Ojingo]

I'll address your points in the order in which you raised them, to avoid a lot of quoting.

1) Yes, from an equity/odds perspective stack sizes don't matter. However, they are relevant in (at least) two respects: first, will a bet/raise or reraise commit anyone? Then the two-cards-for-the-price-of-one phenomenon comes into play. Secondly, stack sizes partly dictate your plan for the next streets, and you have to think how many bets there are left on future streets. Small pot rel. to stacks leaves you more room for outplaying an opponent or getting away from a hand which may not be good.

Implied odds may not always play a big role but they become more important if your opponent is more bluffy or if your draw is hidden.

2) If you have a monster draw and you're certain your opponent has a set then it is not necessary to put in the last bet, assuming that that last bet will not make your opponent fold. You can simply call and save the last bet (Monk concept) if the board happens to pair. But a big draw should normally be played fast, and even faster if you're out of position.

3) Yes, your a,b and c are basically correct, although against better players you should be careful in letting such patterns show.

4) Remember that cleaning up outs only works if people can actually lay down a draw.

5) Yes, turn play will be different because your opponents hand range is so different.

6) "It's very bad to lead out and get blown out of a hand." Sometimes, yes. Especially if you're in position and have a small draw. But remember that you're betting for various reasons: you may have decided already that folding equity alone makes the bet worthwile. If you get raised this particular time, that doesn't mean that that play is -EV overall. (Compare to say continuation betting in NL).
And for your last sentence: if your draw is big enough to check-call a pot bet with, then you can also lead and call a raise, since pot odds will still be 2:1. You do have to ask yourself whether you want to play a big or a small pot though.

"You don't like to fold." How did you know that?!

[Aisthesis]