What you bet; call, reraise?

[Zmej]

This is an imaginary hand, I made it in a way that we come to the river with the broadest range possible.
Please answer the questions for the first hand without looking at the second one.
This is kind of pshychology survey, and I think that results would help a lot in understanding the average betting patterns. And the possibilities for exploitation.

Please spend a little time and answer the questions, I am interested in responses from all the players. After we get some data we could try to draw some conclusions, i.e. analysis of the optimal paly is welcome.


Suppose it is 200NL for both hands, ful stacks. No reads.
If your answer would be different for different stakes, please specify that.


Hand1.
Preflop: Hero on CO raises to 7, BB calls.

Flop(15):
BB checks, Hero bets 12, BB calls.

Turn(39):
BB checks, CO checks

River(39)

I) BB bets 27
a) What is your calling range?
b) What is your raising range?

II) BB checks
a) What range do you bet here?
b) With what range do you call CR?

III) BB bets 13
a) What is your calling range?
b) What is your raising range?


After answering the questions for the first hand, please answer the questions for the second one, without modifying the answers for the first hand.


Hand2.
Preflop: CO raises to 7, Hero calls in BB.

Flop(15):
Hero checks, CO bets 12, Hero calls.

Turn(39):
Hero checks, CO checks

River(39)
Hero?

a) What range do you bet here? (What is the size of the bets?)
b) With what range would you call raise after betting?
c) What range do you check-call?
d) What range do you check-raise?

[Zmej]

I'll start. I didn't make an analysis just some quick answers.

Hand1.
I) a) +
b)

II) a) +
b)

III) a) +
b) +

Hand2.

a) I would bet + and some bluffs without a heart.
I would bet some bluffs and (about half the time) to about 1/3 pot, I would call raise with . With the rest of the range I would bet about 2/3 pot (bluffs, +)

b) only.

c) -

d)


It seems that I need too many to make it all.

[black_knight6]

1:
I:
a) Calling range is the
b) Raising range is the the

II:
a) I bet the +
b) Call the CR with

III:
a) +
b)

2:
a) My entire range. 2/3 pot: same size as my value bets and bluffs.
b)
c) +
d)

The thing with these pots is that they're SO SMALL and the situation is so utterly marginal.

[Danhdan]

I) a)Calling range is small. to b) ,

II) a) Betting TP or worse( bluffing) about 25%), checking set, betting a medium heart and a big heart.
b) Not calling a checkraise without a big flush on the river, x+.

III) a)Curiousity will probably get the best of me, so I am calling with a decent amount of hands, TP, sets, straights, and flushes. This is probably why people bet so small on such boards.
b) If I thought I could move opponent off of the hand, and I hadn't been showing any bluffs, I might raise this one up if it's my first river action shown. If I've been seeing showdowns, probably going to have to have the goods here, so +.

Hand 2:

a) My betting range is very small here, probably +. I would probably just check though either way...I'm not a big fan into leading onto obvious boards. Let the guy in position make a mistake by betting it.
b)My range is same as part a).
c) It depends on the size of the bet probably, but I might call with a Queen or better as long as bet wasn't crazy.
d) I'm checkraising the nuts here without a read.

[Danhdan]

[black_knight6]

Lol...fair enough, OBV...but I don't call with the is what I was getting at.

[Schuster]

I tried not to cheat. I read the first hand and the questions and my mind erupted into all kinds of ridiculousness about what types of players I would do such and such against. There are players I'd call on the first hand with any heart, and players I would easily fold the to. So I cheated and skpped ahead to the second question, and again, same deal.

If your'e asking for perfect game theory, then that's one hell of a complex problem. I'm positive Aisthesis could work it out if he wanted to, but for most poker players including myself, something would get screwed up somewhere. Basically, the hand only plays itself with the or total air in the first spot.

Lee

[droqqa]

These are obviously super opponent dependent, but assuming that the opponent is typical....

1a. +
1b. and bluffs

2a. +
2b. Only with the nuts, which makes a river C/R super sexy for villian here.

3 - Same as #1 really, I don't think bet sizing is super important in this hand.

Hand 2

a. Very wide. Anywhere from air to the nuts.
b. Only the nuts.
c. Good hearts, K or J, maybe T.
d. Probably only the nuts, b/c ppl hate river c/r's and usually pay off.

D

PS This is an interesting discussion and for me, the focus is the river C/R bluff. Against the right opponent who can fold, a river c/r bluff is awesome b/c (1) most ppl dont check behind on the turn with the nuts and (2) ppl will take a stab at the pot on the river with a wide range once checked to 3 times, and (3) most ppl will only CR with the here, so they assume the same for their opponents.

Good stuff.

[Triple B]

HAND 1

1. Calling range: +
I raise the only

2. Bet any 2 that isn't likely to win a showdown if he doesn't have a heart. Value bet +
Call CR with only

3. Calling range any heart
Raise +

HAND 2.
1. Bet sometimes with hand that can't win showdown, value bet and
2. Call raise with
3. Check-call with any heart I would reasonably hold here. (mostly +)
4. CR if I CR at all on this board.

[Zmej]

May be someone can find some other points that could be exploited, but one obvious is the raise of a BB lead.
Most of players indicated that they would lead with a wide range, but would call a raise with only, so it seems that we can show profit by raising this lead with any 2.


River CR is also a point of exploitation, but not so obvious as the betting range seems to be smaller.


P.S. I am interested in a perfect game theory solution, but I have no idea how to construct it. The best idea that I have is to try to look at the problem from different points of views and make a reasonable approximation of how to play against this player pool. (It is the 2nd iteration. First we ask for the ranges, then we adjust our range to their ranges, etc.)

[tommyhawk]

Depends alot on FR or 6-max, stacksizes, and agression off opponent and the way he thinks of us.

I will answer this being 6 max and it's my first hand at table.

1.a call
b. raise

2.a.
b.

3.a any , low as a str8
b.



a any
b
c depends on bet size
d

[Mr_Burnout]

I haven't read all the other replies, but here it goes:

Hand 1:

I a)
I b)

II a)
II b)

III a)
III b)

Hand 2:

a) and above, betsize 2/3 - 3/4.
b)
c) or + maybe.
d) I don't.

[GodlikeRoy]

Hand 1)

Ia) ,
Ib)

IIa) , , ,
IIb)

IIIa) 22, 33, 55, 99, QQ, Any heart

Hand 2)

a) (30BBs) sometimes, (30BBs) sometimes, pure bluffs sometimes
b) only
c) , sometimes
d) , bluffs sometimes