Elevating to the next level at o8

[JDLush]

I was feeling like my o8 game had reached some sort of plateau. While still winning, I wasn't really showing any better numbers than I had 4 months ago. I crunched some PTO numbers a few weeks ago and came to a couple of conclusions. Since then I have been much more consistent and my winning sessions outweigh my losing sessions by a margin of 6:1. More importantly, my losses were on a much smaller scale. Here's what I found:

PLO8
I win more when I play a few more pots in position.
The key here is of course playing the marginal hands on the cutoff or button, not from MP. For a while I tried playing super tight (mainly because I was worried that my 30% vpip was too high) and the results were worse. I was missing out on opportunities that had decent reward for very little risk (one sb here and there will not kill you). If you are on the button and 6 people are limping on a passive table, see the flop with damn near anything. All you need is to hit one hand hard per session and it will more than pay for itself. Somewhat to the contrary, however....

Dump the small blind unless you have a hand that you would normally raise with
This sounds counter-intuitive to my last comment, but my numbers from the sb are dreadful compared to my LP numbers. This is probably not as big a factor in Limit o8, but in PL it's definitely -EV (for me at least)

Min-raise from anywhere with a good low holding
A2xx is not a good low holding. A23x is, and should be min raised from everywhere except probably UTG and UTG+1. Unless you are at a table with complete maniacs (see below for that), anyone that was thinking of limping will call a min-raise. You don't want to scare people off, however, so it's best to get an idea of the table texture before doing this every time.

Run like hell when you miss the flop on your good low hands
Yeah, life sucks and sometimes you'll wait forever for a good A23 hand only to get a flop of J94. The temptation is there to chase your low, especially if there is a decent pot and a min bet, but just bail. It took a while to get the actual numbers, but my backdoor low draws are very -EV when I chase them. If you are going to continue on the flop you had better have a nut flush or nut str8 draw.

Straights suck
Woohoo, you flopped a str8. If it does not have a redraw to a nut flush or boat then be prepared to fold it on the flop if there is a lot of action. Do not risk your stack trying to protect it if there is a flush draw. Too many donkeys will chase their flush, or have a draw to a better str8 and you are almost certainly -EV. The same can be said for a flopped set (even top set).

Sets can suck too
Your hand - AA39. Flop - A89 with 2 hearts. Pot bet and a raise to you, what do you do? Believe it or not, you are probably correct in folding. One player could have a wrap str8 draw and the other is probably a flush draw. You are drawing to 6 outs on the turn (one ace, 3 eights, 2 nines) and at best 9 on the river. The wrap may well have 16 outs or more (if he is holding 7TJQ) and the flush draw has 8 or 9 outs twice). Plus, one or both may have a backdoor low draw that's taking half the pot.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1023824
pokenum -o8 ac as 3d 9d - jc 7s qd ts - 2h 3h 5d 7c -- ah 8h 9s
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 9s Ah 8h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ac 9d 3d 107 273 393 0 0 101 0 0.285
Ts 7s Jc Qd 31 181 485 0 0 0 0 0.159
7c 5d 3h 2h 212 212 454 0 495 0 0 0.556

Granted, this is an extreme example, but you should definitely tread lightly with these. Don't feel like a pussy if you lay it down. If you call, be prepared to reload. In the above situation, if you had a working low draw, or if the board did not already have 2 low cards out it would be different and probably worth a call.

Bet the pot when the board comes all high, or 2 high and you have a piece.
I take down a lot of uncontested small pots in the above situation. Minimal risk, +EV reward.

I have more, but need to grab a cigarette and some lunch, please chime in with your thoughts.

[Felonius_Monk]

Terrific post, well thought-out and to the point. PLO8 players take note, I concur in all cases. SB advice in particular is very good.

This makes me realise that even though I'm creaming the 100 and 200PLO8 all of a sudden, I need pokertracker omaha much more for this game than I do for PLO high! Better try and get it hooked up this weekend, I think!

Monk
xxxxx

[JDLush]

Thanks Monk, PTO is more than worth the $55 american it will cost you. Play around with the filters and you might be surprised what you'll find.

BTW, I meant to say bet half the pot when the board comes all high, or 2 high and you catch a piece.

[Felonius_Monk]

Oh, one thing I disagree with is the min raise with good A2 hands.... I usually select my tables so that they're loose enough to get a couple of calls for a 3 or 4x BB bet with these sort of hands, because I think ALWAYS min raising is a bit of a giveaway as to the sort of hand you have. I then like to mix my raises up a bit, usually raising small in EP and bigger in LP. If I only raise the pot with AA and a wheel card, I think this becomes a bit of a tell in the $100 and $200 games.

Still, seeing the wood for the trees, I've found that you NEED to raise these strong, but not collosal hands in PLO8 because you're giving up too much equity if you don't. Hands like A25K with a suited ace are perfectly raisable in PLO8 and likely to be better than whatever your opponents are playing with.

Monk
xxxxx

[Stoneburg]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Stoneburg]

[ptrack mike]

[teknipper]

Nice post. I have been using PTO but I have never gone back and mined the data. I guess after the move this week I should do that.

I agree on the minimum raise preflop to prime the pot. I do this quite frequently and it accomplished two things.

1) Give you a loose image at the table because you are always raising. At the cost of the .25, it gives you an image that will get you hands paid off on the turn and river for big bets. At the cost of a quarter, you won't drive out the K high flush draws and A3 hands that you want to play against with big holdings.

2) At the cost of a .25 (PL 25) it provides enough sweetener in the pot to get a good bet on the flop for people to chase, but not enough of a pot to be driven out of for you to chase the flush, boat, etc. if you are check raised.

One item that was not addresses that I would be interested to here about in you findings. What does PTO say about the bottom boat, middle set and bottom set? I know that those are actually three items, but I lump them into the same category of monkey dung. I hate those hands and usually fold them to any action.

Also, I definately agree with your statement about folding the best hand on the flop being the correct thing to do at times. I believe that ability to do so separates the break even player from the good player. ATE helped me realize that Omaha was about domination of your opponent and not about coin flips.

Tom