Omaha high hand

[Rhound50]

This hand is 2/4 NL omaha high. Any comments are greatly appreciated. I feel comfortable playing Omaha high, but I still have a lot to learn. This game is question was unbeliveablt juicy, Monk would have creamed himself just watching.

I have $320, Villian 1 has $200, Villian 2 has $180. I am UTG with A 3. I limp, knowing the pot is going to be raised, I think I saw maybe 1 or 2 flops from my blinds. Villian 1 raises to $20, Villian 2 calls. Both are mediocre players, Villian 2 has already burned 4 buyins and stil hasnt figured out the different between holdem and omaha. He just called all in with TPTK. I really want to get heads up and everyone has been calling everthing. Quite a few times, 4 player would limp for $4, then all 4 would call a $50 raise. So it folds back to me, I think about it and decide all in is the only way I am going to get heads up. So I push all in. Thought comments???

The results were good, I was up against AKK6 and AK104 and I ended up making a flush to crack both of them.

[Felonius_Monk]

Hey, if they're going to call, why NOT push! Even if they both folded you'd win the best part of 50 bucks without having to go to a showdown; the EV of your hand probably isn't much MORE than that to see a flop and play from there, even against dreadful players who'll call with TPTK etc.

Interestingly, I'd say it's more important to get all in with AA33 preflop here against these specific opponents simply BECAUSE they'll make a loose call with TPTK on the flop; you actually don't want that call because you want (usually) to be able to bet an uncoordinated flop with your AA hand and have your opponents(s) fold; with nothing more than top pair and a few backdoor draws, a gutshot etc, which these loose players may well call with, you're only likely to be a 60% or so favourite so it's far better from your point of view for them to fold than call on MOST flops your hand'll hit. Consequently, putting the decision to them preflop where you may get one of them to fold (which would be very good) and/or get your money in when your hand is liable to be a significant favourite is better than making a token raise and having to push on a flop where you're probably more likely to be called and less likely to be a clear favourite.

[Rhound50]

Thanks monk. I was pretty sure I played this right, but wasnt totally sure. The first player was telling me, that it was a dumb play because my A's were dead. Of course I have no way of knowing that, plus he dumped 6 buyins in less than 3 hrs so his advice/ critacizm doesnt seem to carry much weight. The second player agreed with him which was kind of funny since he was in really bad shape sharing my A and having one of his kings dead and not flush outs.

On a side note, I would be scared to see how much money you could make at this game. I might have been the best omaha player at this table and Omaha high is maybe my 3rd best game. Gotta love sitting down at a table and seeing 5 limpers, the BB raises to $50, 12.5X bb and he gets 4 callers.

[Felonius_Monk]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Rhound50]

The beauty of this game is that it is played NL, not PL, but I will store that away in the memory banks for PLO.

And dont forget they could have split if they made str8s with AK, or A10. I wanted to ask the guy what made his play so much better since he was drawing to one king, but I decided I didnt want to knock on the aquarium and scare the fish.

[AdamtheExpert]

I like this question. The first thing to say is: Remember, there is NO SUCH THING as "aces" in omaha high. Once you have this drilled into your head, you are well on your way towards success in pot limit omaha. No, in no limit, there is KINDOF a thing, as aces.

ACES ARE ONLY A SEGMENT OF A POSSIBLE STARTING HAND. And, this is QUADRUPLY true, when you KNOW that your opponents are going to call.


Against a quality hand, such as 9 10 J 8 double suited, a medocre AA hand, is actually a small underdog. And, against several hands, well your hand is most likely going to be in the SHIFTER(-F)

Now in this spot, it's not such a bad play to move in, because you should be able to get at least one player out. But, if you know that they are going to defend their 20 bucks to the death, it's better to not make this all in move.

The principle power of an AA hand, in omaha high is:


(1) winning the pot without a flop, IF you can make it enough AND your opponents are not stupid enough to call.

(2) Making a set, and be up against a smaller set, or aces up.

(3) Making a flush.


Couple months ago, ATE played his aces just as I recommend, and TWICE in a row, I won between 400 and 500 bucks off the opponent, who flopped aces up.


Omaha high, is a game of MAKING SOMETHING YOu never, ever have anything, before the flop.

If you are up against certain specific hands, you can be a good favorite, but only if heads up


Example: YOu AA K6 once suited

Opponent: K K 2 7 unsuited.


Or, even if the opponent does NOT have a pair that you happen to hold one of his card.

But, here's the thing: ..............................


WHEN YOU ARE UP AGAINST TYPICAL OPPONENTS, and they raise, the vast majority of the time, you will be looking at the other two aces.


I want all of you to read the above line, 48 times, and make it SINK in.


Don't think "what are the odds" ATE is telling you: They are very very good.


I see people make the same dumbass play, alot, continuing to raise with a HOPELESS AA hand, when it's obvious (or should be) that they are up against the other two, and THEY HAVE EXTRA FEATURES, FELLA!


Example, someone raises to say 12 bucks, in the 2-4 game. Let's say that you each have 400 bucks. you make it 36 with AA 6 9 unsuited (shouldn't have done that!)

Now, they come back, and jack you up to 90 (or whatever it is that they can raise)

With the exception of you haveing a good note that they are a crazed action idiot

IF YOU CALL, OR RERAISE YOU ARE NOT READY TO PLAY THE GAME OF POT LIMIT OR NO LIMIT OMAHA HIGH

This is the TEXTBOOK example, of where everyone (except those trained by ATE) goes wrong in omaha high.


Now, in your example, since neither opponent could take more than half your stack or so, it wasn't such a bad play, especially since you did have pretty good extra features, with the 33, and the flush.

BUT, WHEN you and your opponents each have big stacks, you call call call

If you suspect that your opponet has the other two (because they NEVERT raise, without them) and you have a BOGUS AA hand (Ed note: Bogus AA hands, have no suits, and disconnected other cards)

You FOLD FOLD FOLD.


Again, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "ACES"


Remember the famous ATE line

WHADELSEYAGOT WHADELSEYAGOT



Hopefully, this will remind everyone of who the KING of omaha is.



By the way: Hello Monk, hope y'a doin' well


Adam

[Dumb Snowman]

Hi ATE, good to see ya!

[Felonius_Monk]

Adam is dead right that one of the no.1 biggest mistakes in PLO is overplaying aces.

In this hand I think Rhound played them exactly right, he has another pair that can make a set plus a flush feature, that's ample enough to defend against possible AA in someone else's hand and try to get it in against probable loose-aggressive types.

Also, just wanted to point out that no AA hand is an underdog to JT98ds, even the worst raggiest unsuited aces. However, that's not to say that AA27 no suits is a BETTER hand than JT98ds because the wrap hand has much more betting power postflop and is far more likely to get to the river with some sort of hand in a deep money game. If you get those two hands all in preflop, however, the AA hand is favourite by a couple of a fractions of a percent, not that it makes any difference; you're still gambling. Re-raising AAxx ANYTHING, especially out of position, when you can't get at least two thirds of your stack in, or at LEAST get all in with a pot raise on the flop, is a dumb play, period. I remember a hand I played about a week agao in a 200PLO game online; I raised KKQQds from the cutoff, the BB (a rather predictable player) re-raised, although it put a quarter of his stack in I knew I could easily call. Q hit the flop, he bet pot and I took his stack. That's why you don't re-raise AAxx unless you can get so much of your stack in that the hand plays itself; as Adam said, the second you RE-raise preflop, if you don't do it with other hands, everyone knows you have AA. In a four card game that's a major disadvantage, so there better not be much money left to bet!

Hey Adam, nice to see you. Where've you been? I am doing OK thanks, though shipped out $1k or so in the last few days, which wasn't ideal. Up about $2.5k for June, ahead of schedule for 2005 so far. You still in Minneapolis? There is a bar there I love, in the centre of town, that has about 200 beers on tap as well as free peanuts and popcorn, cool place.

Monk
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[Rhound50]

[Felonius_Monk]

There are surprisingly few! Ciaffone's omaha book is OK but might be pitched a bit low for your skill level. My favourite omaha high book so far is "How Good Is Your Pot Limit Omaha?" by Stewart Reuben. He plays very loose, especially preflop, and I disagree with some of the advice given (which can be a bit off the wall; I note Rolf S. is of the same opinion on his site), but he is a winning player who plays in one of the toughest high-roller PLO games on the planet (in the Vic in London) so he's as well qualified as anyone. It's laid out as a series of quizzes, with multiple choice questions asking what to do at each stage of a hand (all based on real hands he's played) and various marks given for each answer.

Ignore the daft marking system (it really is of no importance) and realise that he plays a LOT more hands preflop than you should online because he's loose to begin with and plays in deep-stacked games, and there's some good stuff in there if you can penetrate some of the occasionally sketchy writing style (sometimes the complete thinking isn't always given) and the fact that some important info is sometimes omitted (stack sizes at the start of the hand and reads on some opponents are often not mentioned) then you will get more out of this book as an intermediate/advanced player than anything else out there IMO. For the small price you pay this book is a must if you want to improve your omaha game, even though as I say it's far from perfect, the lack of annoying 3/4 of the book dedicated to rudimentary concepts means there's some real pearls of wisdom in there, and it's fun to read too.

There is a MAJOR gap in the market for a good, complete PLO high book written by a real top name player. Someone like Rolf, TUP etc who has played in the big games but not produced a book could really clean up with something like that.

Monk
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[Rhound50]