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AQo vs. UTG raises - Live Poker Forums

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AQo vs. UTG raises

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Postby Zmej » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:48 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby excession » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:22 am

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Postby Triple B » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:05 pm

Villain: Why?
Villain: How?
Me: I had a feeling
Villian: Sit in you cretin
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Postby Xaston » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:50 pm

Boy, you got me confused with a man who repeats himself.
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Postby Zmej » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:18 pm

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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Postby Xaston » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:33 pm

Boy, you got me confused with a man who repeats himself.
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Postby Triple B » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:31 pm

Villain: Why?
Villain: How?
Me: I had a feeling
Villian: Sit in you cretin
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Postby excession » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:06 pm

When I saw the 20/17 I immediately though 13% UTG raise to be standard range, so i think yes 11% is a little on the tight side.

What I can't figure out is whether it's better or worse to 3 bet AQo than an equivalent ranked medium pair (I can't be bothered to look it up, but let's assume that's 88).

Pairs hit the flop 3 times less often but when they do they hit hard and will stack the pre-flop monsters often. With AQ, an ace or queen on the flop will still lose out to the big pre-flop hands (AK, AA, KK etc) and cost you much or all of your stack.

So AQ is easier to play when it misses, but harder when it hits than say 88.
I guess as we miss the flop more than we hit them that still means AQo is overall easier to play (and plays better against villain's general raising range but very badly vs his 3 bet calling range - wheras 88 plays the opposite) , so that again militates in favor of raising with the medium pairs and calling with AQ...

I have sort of convinced myself by my ramblings here but would like to hear the pros thoughts on this (and how suited connectors might play - I suspect I like to call with them as they want to see cheap flops to increase the implied odds behind when they flop a draw).
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Postby corporatex » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:44 am

It's a little too black and white of a question really. A lot of what I would do would change depending on my image and how he views me and how this guy is feeling (tilting, winning so playing less aggro, etc.), but I'll try to answer anyway.

If he's a guy that doesn't like to fold preflop and is loose/aggro, I'd probably 3bet vs. him from any position. Tight/aggro guy I'd probably call as what he is going to continue with is going to be detrimental to what I want to occur postflop (say what this guy is going to continue with is 99+ AQ+), whereas if I call I can manipulate the pot postflop by either bluff raising a bunch if I think he folds/cbets too much, and getting it in on the right ace high or queen high flops.

Guy would have to be very tight/nitty for me to fold vs. an UTG raise (like 10/8 nitty).

And I don't really think him making it 3x or 4x should change anything.

And I'm not going to rank which option is better since that could all change vs. each different 20/17 guy.
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Postby Zmej » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:06 am

"#3 pencils and quadrille pads."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when asked what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer; he also recommended using the back side of the pages so that the grid lines were not so dominant.

"Interesting - I use a Mac to help me design the next Cray."
- Seymoure Cray (1925-1996) when he was told that Apple Inc. had recently bought a Cray supercomputer to help them design the next Mac.
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