PLO Hand

[JJSCOTT2]

Up until now most of my experience in Omaha has been O8 which I think I know what I'm doing at, at least enough to be profitable. However, I've recently started playing the $25 PLO games on UB to try to figure this game out too, so I'm gonna post a hand to see if I'm doing it right

Ultimate Bet Pot-Limit Omaha High, $.25 BB (10 handed)

CO ($17.10)
Button ($20.75)
SB ($9.50)
BB ($14.20)
UTG ($24.25)
UTG+1 ($19)
Hero ($25)
MP1 ($24.75)
MP2 ($20.30)
MP3 ($21.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with , , , . Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, Hero (poster) raises to $1.25, 4 folds, Button calls $1.25, 1 fold, BB calls $1, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.

Flop: ($5.35) , , (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($5.35) (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $2, Button raises to $7, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $5.

River: ($19.35) (2 players)
Hero bets $16.75 (All-In), Button calls $12.50 (All-In).

Final Pot: $48.60

I won, he had QQ for the turned set.

First of all, this was the first hand I played at the table, am I correct to be raising a hand like this? I figured this would have been a pretty good hand anyway but having the ace suited increased its value as well, am I right?

The flop was uneventful, I'm folding to a bet here, but since it gets checked around, I see the turn free. At this point, do you like betting the draw here or not? And since I did and got raised, was I right to call to see the river? I guess I wouldn't be surprised to see someone make this play with say a set, plus the flush draw, so that could significantly reduce my outs I suppose. What do you think?

[JJSCOTT2]

More PLO questions.

AA55ds - clearly this hand is worth something, but should I be raising with a hand like this?

TdJdQdKc - I think this is a good hand, obviously if it were double suited it would be a powerhouse, but how much value do I lose in this hand by having that 3rd connecting diamond in there?

789Tds- I raised the crap out of this hand, good call?

One of the most common situations I find where I'm not sure these hands have any value at all are hands which contain 3 high cards and then one rag, with at least one of the high cards suited. Let's say AJQ4 with the ace suited. Is this worth a limp? How much does the value change if it's double suited to the 2 highest cards? What if it's not even ace high, say KQT4? It seems to me especially in PL25 where on average at least 5 people are gonna see a flop, flushes are basically useless unless you have the nut flush or have managed to significantly reduce the field because you can't be them with complete confidence knowing that it's likely there are other flushes out there.

I don't have the hand history on this hand so I'll just give you the gist of it.

I have AcKcQh8d on the button, I limp which like I said above I don't know if I should be doing, and we take the pot many multi ways.

Flop comes down Jc Tc 4d

EP bets half the pot, several callers, LP min-raises, I can't even count the ridiculous number of outs I have here but I figure it's enough to make me a favorite to win this hand. So I re-raise the full pot which was at this point like a $7 dollar raise which at PL25 is pretty significant. First question, was I right to raise this? I get 2 callers out of the deal, EP who is set all-in by the raise, and LP who min-raised originally and has a stack deep enough to bust me. Turn is a brick, he checks, I bet half the pot, he calls. Unfortunately, river is another brick, check/check, he takes it down with JT. Should I check the turn behind? Bet more?


Thanks,

JJSCOTT2

[Rabbi_Chips]

[Felonius_Monk]

Though it looks pretty, AKTT with three hearts isn't the greatest hand (your main feature is the pair and you need to see precisely QJ to have a straight draw, whereas with a hand like KQJT you can hit a ton of different cards to make straight draws), I'd probably just limp in EP (remember, position is vital in this game) and retain the implied odds, though there's no particular problem with raising I guess. Same hand with AKJT is perhaps better; although you're missing the potential set value of the high pair, this wrap can only make nut straight draws and I'm much happier raising this.

On the flop you can't bet. On the turn, if you're going to bet you need to bet the pot, that $2 bet achieves nothing, you won't fold off anybody with half a hand and at present all you have is a draw. When it's raised $5 it's a pretty easy call, he clearly has a hand he likes (maybe top two or a set?) and you have 2 As, 2 Ks, 1 T and 3 9's giving you 8 nut outs, so you can make the call (if he bets the full size of the pot it's perhaps a lot closer; whether you call depends on whether you think he'll pay off a straight and/or if you can bluff a scare card, like a club). You must bare in mind that a club probably hurts you, BUT if a club hits the river and makes your straight you may be able to check down and win (or, better yet, make a small bet and fold if he raises).

So you played fine, but don't make weedy bets like you did on the turn on drawing hands, that is a terrible, terrible play in PLO; bet the pot or check. A lot of really poor, passive players make small bets with draws and not only does it allow you to liberally check raise them when you hold a set, it also gives away tons of info about their hand, and also prices in any draws you might have in most situations. So don't make those small bets on draws ever again, or I'll come round and burn your pets!

AA55ds is an absolute monster and if you can get it all in preflop, do so. Any AA ds hand is a big one BUT don't fall into the error of over-valuing them when you're out of position until you've seen the flop. AA hands need either to hit a set, AA overpair with a flush draw, or (sometimes) flops like 22T in a raised pot where the raise makes a 2 less likely to be out there. However, beware of RE-raising this hand because it gives away that you have AA; usually, make the first raise with them or consider re-raising if you can get a short-stack all in or if you can get 50-60% of your stack in (at least) preflop.

TJQK is worth a raise, even with three of the cards in the same suit. Don't get over-excited though as it's not a monster, probably worth building the pot preflop though. Any four card run is nice because if you flop two pair you automatically also have an open-ended straight draw, and if you flop a straight draw it's liable to be a wrap with a lot of outs. TJQKds would be a much better holding. Having three cards of the same suit, in real terms, doesn't make the flush feature appreciably less strong. The fact it's "only" Q high makes it only a minor feature in the hand, though.

789Tds is a huge PLO hand and needs to be raised, especially in LP. You could even consider re-raising for deception against tricky players (they'll put you on the likes of AA). However, it IS a hand which can be dominated if you flop strongly and if someone else has something like 9TJQ, so tread carefully. One of the better reasons to raise this hand (and any other suited mid-range wrap) is to clean up any possible flush draws a bit and give you some backdoor value if one or two of your suit flop and you have a big wrap straight draw.

There's an article on the front page about PLO hands preflop, you should have a look at it, there's some examples in there.

Hope this helps.

Monk
xxxxx

[Felonius_Monk]

Oh, and that last hand - you should check the turn because an opponent is all in - you need to hit one of your many draws to win the pot, because you can't bluff them both out. If both players are still live I'd bet the pot because a) you could just fold them both, players on two pair etc are liable to be less confident in their hand after your aggression and b) if both players call your bet is +EV anyway, with all your outs. You're definitely right to raise that flop as hard as you can (though if you get re-raised and the money is deep, AND it resolves to a heads up pot, you should just call - he probably has a set and thus you can save your last chips if the board pairs on the turn; this sort of play is described in my PLO post-flop articles on the front page, check it out).

I usually limp with hands that contain a suited ace plus two other broadway cards in MP and LP, on passive tables (i.e. I don't want to face a raise). "Three-legged dogs" tend to be playable in games where your opponents play poorly and give up a lot of value post-flop, and where there's plenty of money to bet when the flop is good (i.e. deepish stacks and a lack of preflop raising). Hands like KQT4 are not much use really. Some people play just about any 4 cards in PLO but I really can't see how hands like this can be +EV except on the crappiest of tables.

Your hands are made up of features which work together. You just need to consider them in isolation, and also how well they work together. With AQJ4ss to the ace, you can flop a high straight draw/wrap and a nut flush draw. Not great but on the right flop it could be useful. However, you lose nothing by folding these hands. If you ain't confident playing it, send it to the muck. Simple. Check out the starting hand selection article on the front page for more info on the features that make up a PLO high hand.

Monk
xxxxx

[JJSCOTT2]

Thanks guys, I vow never to bet $2 into a $5 pot ever again in PLO.

[Felonius_Monk]

Don't be so hasty ... Small raises and bets can be useful in the right spots (a bluff where you have absolutely nothing and your opponent may be on a missed draw where any skanky pair would beat you, or if you have a monster, your opponents probably have nothing, and you want to milk some more money out of them).

But when you're on a draw, or a made yet vulnerable hand (e.g. top set on the flop), you want to bet the pot or perhaps check-raise.