Raising the Turn with a Draw (PLO)

[briachek]

[GodlikeRoy]

[Kuso]

i second all of what roy said, plus:

1) you often don't need much fold equity for a turn raise to be a good play with a modest hand. 20% fe + fd + gutter is usually a good image play that rarely sees you as a big equity dog. the strength of the fd obviously depends on villain.

2) expanding on what roy said (2nd paragraph), i think good turn play depends on how villain(s) will play the river. if they're passive, weak-tight (esp. if it's telegraph check-fold), or blufftards who'll pay off when you hit, often times calling and seeing the river is the optimal play. this concept is very much lost on most of the 2p2ers who seek out small edges (incl. fold equity) at every opportunity instead of taking larger edges on later streets.

3) check-raising is often very different than raising, imo. i will often check-raise relatively light on the turn (e.g., bare nfd) if i think that villain is floating/sponging my flop bets too much. i also do this with big made hands, so it really slows the floaters down since they usually figure out that i have a monster or equity. this same concept applies to people who donk bet the turn regularly on steals or bare draws -- that is, i'll raise ip relatively light just to try to keep them in line.

4) i personally find the modest draw play (in roy's terms) more interesting when considering a second barrel on the turn (ip or oop). i think you often have more fold equity on a bet than when you're raising -- that is, a bet is more often a made hand than a check, so you have a better idea of where you're at (although it's not always clear).

[teknipper]

I don't think what your describing is truly a weakness. You might be leaving a few coins on the table at the end of the day, but you are trading that for a low variance Omaha game. I don't see anything wrong with that, especially since I do the same thing.

The most limiting part of my game is time. On average, I play 20-25 tables hours a month (2 table * 1 hour = 2 table hours), which is not that much to handle variance. I know guys that put that many tables hours in by lunch on the first day of the month.

To combat the inevitable swings in this game, I came up with a more conservative approach that works. Why put your money in when you are a 60-40 favorite when you can wait for a 80-20%. Sure there are more 60-40's than 80-20's, but it does bring up the variance more which time will even out. However, as I stated, I don't have the time.

Essentially, I found out that you can call as a favorite, instead of raising and still get the same results.
Example:
I raised on the button with AAQTds and got 5 callers. The flop came KJ4, with two of my suit and one of the other. Checked to me and I bet pot. I was check raised from the SB and called in two spots. Now you could easily argue that I could put it all in there and be correct. However, since he obviously had a set, I flat called to see the turn. It was a 3 of my second suit. I now had two nut flush draws to go with the wrap straight. When he bet out, it was ~80% of my stack, the other two in the hand were pot committed on the flop bet and called. I flat called as well. The river completed a flush and it was checked to me. I bet my remaining $20 and he called because there was $225 in the pot.
Logic:
I flat called the flop because it the board pairs there, I would be drawing thin (2 aces) and could fold to preserve the majority of my stack. If the board doesn't pair, I am going to call even if I don't pick up another draw.
I flat called the turn, because if I miss I fold and save $20. If I hit, the pot was so big that he would have to call, which he did.

Summary:
If you are OK with leaving a little money out there it return for less variance, go right ahead and do it. Nothing is wrong with that.

Tom

[Chips->Middle]