Have you ever, ever folded KK before the flop

[Gnosis]

I just did for the first time. Generally speaking I almost never ever do. But I was just playing on PS and there was a player that is unusually tight - only calls raises with AK or a wired pair, never plays suited connectors excet out of the SB. Smooth calls raises with KK and QQ - The only time I've seen this person reraise is with AA.

The hand went like this - A loosy goosy player that raises with any two broadway - and chases it down to the river - opens for a standard raise in EP, no one else calls so I smooth call on the button. This rock makes a mammoth re-raise, the loose player goes all in, and I fold since I was only 4BB invested in the pot and I was certain the player in the blind had AA - sure enough that is what they had.

[k3nt]

Good for you!

I'm reading "The Theory of Poker" (an xmas present), which I'm sure you've all read before, but let me remind you of a bit that seemed really important to me.

"To illustrate further the cost of giving away your hand, suppose you are playing heads-up razz with no ante, no forced bet, and all the time in the world. You have decided, therefore, to play super-super-tight, folding everything except A23 on your first three cards. With no ante it would seem you're a cinch to end up a winner, but the fact is a good player will slaughter you. He'll soon know you are only playing with A23, and he'll play his cards accordingly. He'll start off with slightly worse hands than yours ... but he'll wind up beating you on later plays since he'll know exactly what you have. He'll know when you pair up and when you don't, and he'll never make a mistake. On the other hand, ... you will make mistakes because you won't know what your opponent has." (p 65)

If you only re-raise PF with AA, then to anybody who's paying attention you're giving your hand away and losing money. In particular, if that guy has KK to your AA, you're losing a fabulous chance to take his whole stack. If you think anybody is paying attention (and with pokertracker out there you have to assume somebody is!), you have to mix it up at least occasionally.

Anyway, Gnosis, way to take advantage of your knowledge and save yourself some bucks!!! Way .

[briachek]

I've never folded KK preflop but I did come across one hand where I definately should have and I strongly suspected it. In a home tourney, UTG min raises, UTG +1 calls, folds to me in lp and I raise 3x his bet, folds to UTG who min reraises and UTG+1 folds. Why would he raise again when I showed strength. If he went all in, I would have less of a read but his reraise screamed AA. I knew he had AA but I was too stubborn to get away. Not much of his stack left if I call so I go all in, he calls immediately and flips over aces. Board is all blanks and I lose most my stack. This is the only time I've ever thought to lay them down and I think it takes a read where you are SURE he has it to lay down a monster like that preflop.

[Felonius_Monk]

I folded KK preflop once in a $100NL game. The two all in players had AA and JJ, flop came KJ6 .

Monk
xxxxx

[Mad Genius]

I don't think folding KK PF in a 100xBB max buy-in game online is generally not a good idea for a variety of reasons: stacks aren't deep enough, no clear tells, etc. In a live game with deeper stacks, I think laying down KK to a re-raise when you're out of position against a good player isn't such a bad move. KK doesn't play exceptionally well postflop, especially out of position, when you are gonna be constantly afraid of AA and possible sets. KK is great in tournies but I'm starting to like it less and less in deep stack games, where you are almost playing for a set.

[Bob314]

Mad Genius, I think you have a double negative in your post, but are you trying to say that it is generally a bad play to release K-K preflop in a 100BB game online? I think that there are DEFINITELY some very obvious betting patterns that players exhibit that allow you to *correctly* release it preflop, the most notorious one being the early position call-raise (back-raise, whatever it is called). Rarely will I ever see someone pull this move and not show down A-A or K-K.

[Mad Genius]

What I meant to say was that I believe it is almost never correct to release KK preflop in the online games. The majority of players play with less than 100xBB and unless you have specific reads on players I don't think it's profitable in the long run to fold it. The limp-reraise is not used by most lower-level players, and smart players will sometimes use it to represent AA (I do this at times). I just think that for every time you pay off AA, you will be paid off by QQ, AK, and JJ, so in the long run it's almost definately +EV to play KK for your stack PF. If a rock is re-raising your raise, obviously that may be a time to let it go, but without a specific read that says opponent is a rock who only re-raises with AA, I'll have to see the AA to believe it.

[Gnosis]

I agree with M.G. I've played serveral hundred thousand of hands online and last night was the first time I ever folded KK before the flop. There have bee several times that I thought I might be up against it, but it usually ends up being JJ, QQ or AK. Once in a while it is AA, but I know my winnings against inferior hands makes up for the times you are up against it

[Smokin'Al]

[Gnosis]

[darrenelias]

[Bob314]

I would think that even if you fold K-K preflop I would never ever ever want anyone to know that you are capable of it! Thus, folding and showing seems bad there. Nice laydown and good point about the min raising/re-raising though.

[Rhound50]

One of my KK laydown, I was playin a $50 NL on paradise, I was playing two tables, I was tired and probably shouldnt have been playing. I look at one of my tables and see K/J off and there is a raise in front of me, I click the fold button. As the cards are being muched I see KK no KJ. A really loose player after me reraises and the first player calls. I'm kicking myself, loose player is all in on the flop, and is called. Loose player is playing AA. Moral of the story don't play poker when you are really tired and sometimes luck is better than skill.

[k3nt]

I came this close to folding KK correctly the other day. I raised to about 5x the BB in late position and was re-raised to almost 50x the BB by the button. I knew knew knew the bastard had AA but couldn't lay it down because I thought just maybe he had AK. So it's all-in time, and of course he had AA. Another A came on the flop so even AK would have beaten me. Sigh.

Just a few bucks, of course, in the micro-limits games. But so annoying.

Next time I lay it down, though, for sure. My KKs always seem to get busted by Ax anyway.

[k3nt]

Whoa! I can attest that the bad word blocking is working. Wouldn't even let me type b-a-s-t-a-r-d in the last post.