too aggressive??

[Raisor]

Hey everyone, this is my first time posting. I am still learning how to play, and this was a sticky situation i got myself into and was just wondering what you all think my best move would be. I am not sure how best to play these flush draws especially when out of postiion.
A little background info on the hand, The table was pretty aggressive preflop, villian had vpip around 50% with pfr around 14%. I had only been at the table for about 3 orbits, so i didn't have any specific reads, just my poker tracker stats to go by.


***** Hand History for Game 2504389582 *****
$25 PL Omaha - Tuesday, August 09, 06:21:59 EDT 2005
Table Table 37900 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: LouisvilleAK ( $27.50 )
Seat 2: hero ( $25.40 )
Seat 3: wags8 ( $40.75 )
Seat 4: haiduc15 ( $15.15 )
Seat 5: mako80 ( $2.25 )
Seat 6: prediktorn1 ( $25.35 )
Seat 7: crapsie ( $1.86 )
Seat 8: dragonkissus ( $27.80 )
Seat 9: Fear_Factors ( $53.60 )
Seat 10: chiun83 ( $8.60 )
LouisvilleAK posts small blind [$0.10].
hero posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ 5c 6d 7s Ac ]
wags8 calls [$0.25].
mako80 calls [$0.25].
1 fold
crapsie calls [$0.25].
dragonkissus calls [$0.25].
Fear_Factors raises [$1.85].
2 folds
hero calls [$1.60].
I know this is a marginal call, but there had been a lot of pre flop raising the full amount, I was thinking if he has Aces then i have one of his outs, so if i hit the right flop i am in good shape to stack him, if not i am out of the hand.
wags8 calls [$1.60].
mako80 is all-In.
crapsie is all-In.
dragonkissus folds.
Fear_Factors calls [$0.40].
hero calls [$0.40].
wags8 calls [$0.40].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, 9c, Kh ] $11.21 in pot
hero checks.
I check here without a plan yet of how i am going to play the hand. A lot of times from the blinds I will check and see what kind of action there is behind me before i make a commitment to the hand, I know i want to play this hand, just not sure how yet.
wags8 checks.
Fear_Factors bets [$10.66].
hero pushes all-In.
so here i decide it is either push or fold and i cant win by folding so i go with the push.
wags8 folds.
Fear_Factors calls [$12.49].


so any other ideas how to play this, I was thinking of making sort of a blocking bet on the flop of around $5 to see where i stand, if i did that what do i do if i get raised?

[Felonius_Monk]

Hi raisor, nice to have you here!

Preflop I don't think that's a bad call PROVIDING it's a hand you're comfortable to play post-flop. If it's one you struggle with in situations like this, you might consider folding to a raise preflop until you're a little more confident of how to play it; the hand itsslf is a reasonable one, though.

On the flop you have a flush draw plus a POSSIBLE 8 to win it. A lot depends on how aggressive the preflop raiser is; against some opponents who will lay down all but a big set or a big draw, I would lead out on this flop because it's UNLIKELY the preflop raiser has a set of kings or any sort of draw (you have the only high-card-orientated draw with your ace high flush), and thus you're likely to make him fold. If he raises you back all-in, you have enough odds to call with your flush (flush beats a set right around one third of the time on this flop, perhaps a bit more with your straight draw too).

However, I would be less inclined to check-raise, as you did; the reason for this is that once the preflop raiser bets out on the flop, there's not really enough money left to make him fold any hand. There's no "fold equity" in raising here because you won't get a weak hand but one that's beating yours (like AAxx) to fold, more often than not, at $25 level.

Probably the best plays are either to lead out and hope you get two players to fold (calling all-in with your decent draw if necessary) and checking and seeing what develops. Once your opponent bets the pot, it's probably marginally best to fold. He will, of course, move in on the turn if you don't so you're effectively going to be putting your $24 in to a $60 pot on a hand in which i'd estimate you have about 35-40% of the equity; you're putting in 40% of the chips for the final pot, and are almost certain not to be winning more than 40% of the time even in a perfect world, so, marginally, it's a fold. The exception would be if the guy left to act (wags) might call the bet as well, giving you better pot odds, but really you can only be guessing that that's the case.

Consider leading out against a weak/tight player, otherwise check and hope he offers you odds to draw to your flush by betting less than the pot.

Hope this helps,

Monk
xxxxx

[Raisor]

[briachek]

I don't mind that preflop call PROVIDED that you are comfortable playing postflop AND you have position on the raiser. Since you don't, I fold this preflop because it gets you in the situation you were in. Plus, you always have to count outs to the nuts unless you have a dead solid read on the player. He could have KKT8 and you are in real trouble. Even if he has something like KKJT or AAJT, your straight is no longer an out.

Since you can only be sure of that you have outs to the flush that doesn't pair the board, I let go of the hand as you have almost no fold equity.

[Felonius_Monk]

Yep, position is very important in PLO. Also, as we've both mentioned, you're best to call raises only with hands you know how to play when they hit a strong flop... otherwise, leave well alone!

[Raisor]

good points, i have only been playing about a week so i am still learning the correct strategies for this game. I have been playing a low variance nut-peddle type game and am trying to branch out and learn how to play a more aggressive type game. i am playing pretty tight pre flop usually only playing in lp, but i get tempted to call these raises from the blinds. I have lead out on these types of flops before and then was not sure how to play to a reraise and i dont like bluffing off my stack if i bet pot on flop and get called and feel like i must push the turn even when a blank comes, i have been in that situation too. i guess i am learning position, position, position...

[Raisor]

here are the results, i was wondering what you thought of the other guy's play, i know he didnt play it wrong, but i have been playing a little more cautiously on a draw heavy board like that one. He had KKxx, total rags for sides can't remember exactly what they were but they didnt give him any redraws to anything except the board pairing and the 8 clubs came on the turn.

[briachek]

i've been playing PLO off and on since about december and I finally think I'm getting a good understanding of good postflop play. Otherwise, i was just a nut peddler and mostly still am. Don't try to rush it. Play tight and aggressive when you have hands but learn to fold and when to call or raise but don't try to make too many "moves" as those plays take people folding more than they do at PLO25, especially on party.

[Felonius_Monk]

[Stl10202]

I guess my nut-peddling is pretty damn good. From the time I read FM's article on this site I have been crushing the game (back in December is when I started as well).

I would like to help you out raisor by sharing some of my experiences.
1. chasing a K high flush draw is not a great idea with a few others in the pot.
2. play underfulls very carefully in multiway pots.
3. I just read Lyle Berman's section of PLO in SS2 and started to incorporate that into my game. It is more strategy and opens a few more hands to play. For example, if you hold 9965 and the flop is 944 you should bet out and hope that someone with a 4 is dragged along. It is a great play and very profitable.
4. you MUST be able to lay down some big hands. Such as low straights or underfulls.
5. a REraise PF usually means AAxx. Try to take notes on people who do this with double suited cards or offsuited. I generally call with it being offsuit or reraise if I can severely limit the field. Just don't get too crazy with it. It can and WILL lose big pots if you are not careful.
6. position is the single most important thing to keep in mind. I have won A LOT in the BB and LPs. the BB IMO is the greatest place to be because if it gets limped around and you have a decent/monster flop you can get paid off nicely by some dope.
7. cards that work together win more. I am getting used to folded hands like AA83 or KK72 offsuited in EP unless it is a really passive table.
8. I never call with trips in the whole. it just isn't for me. I don't know if this is a mistake but to me, set it or forget it, and with me having one out to look for, it is not a good situation.

I'll let you know if I get more but I hope this helps. Read and reread FM's PLO part 1 and 2 and understand them before you sit down and play. You'll notice that a lot of people who lose are playing hands that are vulnerable and the type of hands FM says not to play.

[Raisor]

[Felonius_Monk]