Bottom Set

[eDgar]

Should it ever be laid down? I know this isn't PLO.. where bottom set sucks..
Here's a hand I played that could have been easily avoided. By not playing SMALL STUPID PAIRS.
GC NLHE .25./.50
Limped with 33
flop As3s6d
First to act! bet $3(hint)
someone with nut-flush draw called. I doubled pot to $18.
both called... turn blank..
Have $21 left and its checked to me? All-in?? bigstack has me covered other guy with nutflush has half of mine.
Ofcourse I went allin and realized I was drawing to 1 out when the bigstack went allin aswell.

Should I have checked and given them both free cards? I knew nutflush wasn't folding after calling 15more and only having around 11left.

[Nortonesque]

Your play here is fine -- set over set is just unlucky. You'll make a lot of money from flopping sets with small pairs.

Even if there's a preflop raise, you should call if you and the raiser have at least 10x the bet in your stacks (Iceman's rule). You're 8-1 to flop a set, and the implied odds with a set are very high -- you're likely to bust him/double up.

[Gishaclaus]

eDgar --

Exact stack sizes up front would help make things clearer here, but I agree with Norton that there's not a whole lot you can do here in this situation. Occasionally I'll fold small pairs in EP in a very aggressive game if I'm not stacked very deep, but hands like the one you hit are the great moneymaker in NLHE. You're pretty much pot committed after your raise on the flop, and you were able to get all your money in with probably the fourth best hand on the board. Nothing to do here except reload and move on. It happens. I agree with Norton that one should usually use the 10X rule for calling preflop with small PP. Obviously, position and the tone of the game make a big difference too. Nothing's worse than throwing in 10% of your stack in EP preflop and then getting raised off of it by someone on the button . . .

Eric

[eDgar]

Hand histories are bad at Gaming Club.. it wasn't even .50/1

*** Export for: thecheetah Game: Texas Holdem Game number: 199210090 ***
Date: 1/3/2005 8:56:47 PM
Game: 199210090: Table: About Schmidt
Normal Table No Limit 0.50/1.00
Rake: 3.00
Seat: 1 Caer58
Seat: 2 Kryddan49
Seat: 3 jamily
Seat: 4 thecheetah
Seat: 5 galactus
Seat: 6 sarrameda (Dealer)
Seat: 7 Vicellbin
Seat: 8 Zelange
Seat: 9 Lillfjalar
Seat: 10 Kadden
OpeningBetRound
Vicellbin : Posts small blind 0.25
Zelange : Posts big blind 0.50
Lillfjalar : Calls for 0.50
Kadden : Calls for 0.50
Caer58 : Calls for 0.50
Kryddan49 : Folds
jamily : Calls for 0.50
thecheetah : Calls for 0.50
galactus : Folds
sarrameda : Folds
Vicellbin : Calls for 0.25
Zelange : Checks
Flop
Vicellbin : Bets 3.00
Zelange : Folds
Lillfjalar : Folds
Kadden : Folds
Caer58 : Calls for 3.00
jamily : Folds
thecheetah : Raises for 18.00
Vicellbin : Calls for 15.00
Caer58 : Calls for 15.00
Turn
Vicellbin : Checks
Caer58 : Checks
thecheetah : Went all-in 21.25
Vicellbin : Went all-in 67.40
Caer58 : Went all-in 12.00
Vicellbin : Receives returned betting money 46.15
River
Vicellbin : Shows cards
Caer58 : Shows cards
thecheetah : Shows cards
Showdown
Caer58 [ AH, KS, JD, 9S, 8H - No Pair ]
thecheetah [ 3S, 3H, 3D, AH, JD - Three of a Kind ]
Vicellbin [ 6S, 6D, 6H, AH, JD - Three of a Kind ]
Result
Vicellbin Showed Cards (Winning) 109.00
Zelange Mucked Cards
Lillfjalar Mucked Cards
Kadden Mucked Cards
Caer58 Showed Cards
Kryddan49 Mucked Cards
jamily Mucked Cards
thecheetah Showed Cards
galactus Mucked Cards
sarrameda Mucked Cards

Community Cards

[3S][ AH][ 6S][8H][ JD ]
Players Cards
Vicellbin [ 6D, 6H ]
Zelange [ -, - ]
Lillfjalar [ -, - ]
Kadden [ -, - ]
Caer58 [ KS][9S ]
Kryddan49 [ -, - ]
jamily [ -, - ]
thecheetah [ 3H][ 3D ]
galactus [ -, - ]
sarrameda [ -, -

[eDgar]

I was wondering... if the smarter play here was to check then fold if a Spade A or 6 comes. What else could the inital raiser have that didn't beat me besides top 2 pair? and the guy with nutflush draw wasn't about to fold after calling that big reraise on flop.

[Gishaclaus]

So you're going to fold a set into a roughly $60 dollar pot with only $21 left behind? When if a spade comes on the turn you still have the proper odds to call and fill up if someone flips over the flush and shows it to you? You don't think the original raiser could have AK (very possible at this level) or an even weaker ace than that? Just because you ran into set over set in this instance doesn't mean you should look for a reason to fold them in the future. You give up too much EV long term by taking this attitude.

Eric

[Danhdan]

24 of spades. 45 of spades, Ace high flush draw, a gutshot w/o flush draw...an a million other horrible hands that made no sense assuming he isn't very good.

He also could of had a flush draw like 87 of spades.

Some people find it hard to guess what kind of hand someone has, but I find it hardest to figure out what that person was thinking playing that hand.

[Nortonesque]

The initial raiser could have any number of hands. He could have a flush draw, or something like AJ or AT. All in is easily the best move here -- get your money in while you are likely to win. If you're up against a flush draw, it's a little over 4:1 to hit -- so you're getting at least 4:1 on any money you put in.

Wait until the river and any missed flush draw won't pay off, or you may get bluffed of the best hand, or you may lose to someone who would have laid it down.

[Rhound50]

This is a rough hand, set over set always hurts. But that is no reason to stop playing small pairs. Pocket pairs are my favorite hands in NL without question, sets are by far the best money making flops. They are the most hidden monster. I have made more money in NL ring games flopping sets than any hand. For everytime you lose $25 set over set, you make 10X as much busting, big pairs, top 2, making a boat vs someone else's trips.