Q-Q UTG

[Bob314]

$100 max (.5/1) table on Bodog. I'm full stacked.

I pick up Q-Q UTG and make it $4 to go. Folds to a mid/late player who calls, then the guy right after him min raises, making it $7 to go. That can't be good, but I'm not folding for another $3. I call, as does the caller of my first raise.

Pot: $21
Flop: 8[h]-3[d]-2[s]

Well the flop looks really nice, but I'm still concerned about the min raise preflop. I really don't want to get heavily involved with the preflop min raiser, but the flop looks really good to me. I decide that I didn't hit my set and I want to see how the min-raiser bets. What do you guys prefer to do? Lead out and fold if you are raised or slow down if you are called or check and see what happens?

[kennyg]

I feel a check raise would help you better then leading out would in this situation....
You'd have to make it fairly big though to make sure he's not drawing with AK.

If he calls the big raise or reraise...then I'm through with the hand unless a Queen pops up.

[excession]

On party last night lost 3 times with QQ against a pre-flop overpair. Each time I raised up to $3-4 and got reraised.

Three times I called the pre-flop re-raiser (Implied odds there for a set). Each time no ace or king (or Q) came on the flop. Each time I wasn't good enough to lay it down then and there and lost more money as a result.

But I ended up overall on the night and learnt a very important lesson.

I AM DONE WITH QQ WHEN A STANDARD BET IS RE-RAISED PRE-FLOP. SO FAR AS I AM CONCERNED QQ IS JUST A MORE BEGUILING JJ AND IS TRASH IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES. IF I DO SEE A FLOP AND THE SET MISSES I AM FINISHED

And if this rule holds good at Party $25's then I'm damn sure it holds good everywhere else in the NL universe.

[Danhdan]

Iceman limp-reraises UTG with AK, so if you are playing him...go get him!

[TexasKowboy]

[Rhound50]

Excession I have to disagree with you a little here, your QQ is still often good here depending on the player. A lot of player like to limp reraise with AK, 1010 or JJ maybe even AQ(Less likely). This is all dependant on your read on the other player. Against a rock I fold no problem, but your chances of being against a bigger pair than QQ in a full 10 player ring is less than 10%.

[Bob314]

[iceman5]

[kennyg]

Sometimes checking is the best possible thing to do...just to witness what the other players do. If he made a really large bet, you can easily fold your hand and wait for a better spot to expolit. If he bets small..you can make a large checkraise and see what he does then.

Where I used to get in trouble, is I didn't make large enough checkraises and I was just cold called by hands like AA. Then I contined to bet in front of the raiser, who was not going to fold come hell or high water. So now I make sure I make a large reraise..and if I'm called..I give up unless the turn is a mighty card for my hand.

[Bob314]

[excession]

'but your chances of being against a bigger pair than QQ in a full 10 player ring is less than 10%.' [Rhound]

This is irrelevant. It's before any information comes into the system.

If instead I ask you 'what is the average holding that non-maniacs will re-raise a standard raise with pre-flop', you will get the following

Most ABC players will stick to re-raising with a big pair (ie AA,KK or maybe QQ).
Some aggressive types will also push with AK, JJ or even TT.

Now if I look at the PFR% of someone and see that he is passive (ie less than 8% raise pre-flop) then I'm pretty sure he won't be that aggressive a re-raiser. Let's make the assumption (and it's a worst case scenario) that every aggressive pre-flop player would also re-raise with AK,JJ or TT)

I know that a least 2/3 of players at the Party $25 low-medium average tables (where I play) will come into the passive category (in fact I will be able to see the stats on the specific player but let's try to guess the 'average' likliehood we are in trouble.)

So 66% of the time (the ABC players) you are facing an overpair to your QQ if there is a re-raise pre-flop .

The other 33% you might be.
12 ways for the AA or KK
16 ways for AK, 12 for JJ or TT (28)

Roughly 1/3 the time you are facing the overpair vs the aggressive re-raiser..

So I figure you are facing the overpair overall 3 times out of 4.

And of course the aggressive player is going to push no matter what post-flop.

Nah - as I said before - unless he is a maniac I'm shutting up shop if I don't set the flop.

[Felonius_Monk]

Good analysis. Here's an example of that idea in action, from yesterday; I got in (of course) a country mile ahead, though the absurd turn and river take the shine off the play a little!

***** Hand History for Game 1398278066 *****
$25 PL Hold'em - Thursday, January 06, 13:59:35 EDT 2005
Table Home of the blues (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: MAN0085 ( $26.85 )
Seat 3: jesscam ( $0 )
Seat 4: wirewraps ( $24 )
Seat 5: yuharka ( $10 )
Seat 7: magic_maniac ( $44.65 )
Seat 8: Fel_Monk ( $23.5 )
Seat 9: heeroyuy ( $19.1 )
Seat 10: Midrack ( $63.7 )
MAN0085 posts small blind [$0.25].
wirewraps posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Fel_Monk [ Qh Qc ]
yuharka folds.
>You have options at Dark Horse Table!.
>You have options at Table 11263 Table!.
magic_maniac folds.
Fel_Monk raises [$1.75].
heeroyuy raises [$5].
Midrack calls [$5].
MAN0085 folds.
wirewraps folds.
>You have options at Dark Horse Table!.
>You have options at Table 11332 Table!.
Fel_Monk calls [$3.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 6s, 5h ]
>You have options at Table 11263 Table!.
Fel_Monk checks.
heeroyuy bets [$5].
Midrack calls [$5].
>You have options at Dark Horse Table!.
Fel_Monk is all-In [$18.5]
>You have options at Table 11332 Table!.
oscooutlet has joined the table.
baerrizerio has joined the table.
heeroyuy is all-In [$9.1]
Midrack calls [$13.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]
heeroyuy shows [ Jc, Js ] a straight, five to nine.
Midrack shows [ 4s, 4d ] a straight, five to nine.
Fel_Monk shows [ Qh, Qc ] a straight, five to nine.
Fel_Monk wins $4.35 from side pot #1 with a straight, five to nine.
Midrack wins $4.35 from side pot #1 with a straight, five to nine.
heeroyuy wins $18.38 from the main pot with a straight, five to nine.
Fel_Monk wins $18.39 from the main pot with a straight, five to nine.
Midrack wins $18.38 from the main pot with a straight, five to nine.
>You have options at Table 11263 Table!.

The re-raiser was loose and semi-aggressive preflop, so I felt that TT, JJ and AK were all possibilities. When he bet so weakly on the flop, it looked like a bit of a tell so I moved in with my QQ. Had he bet the pot I'd intended to fold. With the $5 bet I really felt that AK looked very likely, and if I had further interest in the pot it had to be all in. With over $25 in the pot I felt this was a decent bet; the flop caller, btw, was a loose calling station so could have had any pair or any draw to make that meak call. Putting $18.50 into a pot of $65 (if they both called) with a hand I felt was at least 50:50 to win it was a decent play, though the result kinda sucked.

I feel rather chastened to be posting hands from 25NL after being at the 100 games over a year ago I'd better stick up some 200 PLO ones or something

Monk
xxxxx

[excession]

[kennyg]

If he leads for $5....I think a $20 check raise would certainly be enough to drive out AK or AQ...possibly QQ if he holds it as well and is scared to bet it

[Danhdan]

I remember you mentioning it sometime that you do it w/ players that know you, and have seen you do that w/ AA. I was just impressed that you actually have done it.

Or mentioned it. That is the sort of idea that I don't think I would have ever come up with on my own...not that I have done it yet...except in a tournament.