Limit O8

[Kuso]

I've decided to bite the bullet and at least get familar with limit O8. The main reason I want to do this is so that I can play at casinos and not be completely out of my element. The casino near my hometown only spreads limit O8 (and only on Sundays at that), and I hear that most US casinos prefer limit due to the burden that pot limit puts on the dealer and the rake (is this true?).

Anyway, I have a few questions that I hope one or more of you can answer:

1) What are good big bet per 100 hand win rates at .50/1 and 1/2 at Party? What about higher limits (if anyone has experience)?

2) What limit levels are comparable in skill to the $25 and $100 PLO8 tables at Party? I see the $25 tables as consisting of some fish, some weak-tight break-even players, and a few big winners (outside of the bonus periods during which every weak-tight player on the planet seems to come out of their caves). The $100 tables seem similar except without the extreme morons and a bit more aggression (I could be wrong on this -- not enough experience).

3) What are the big differences in proper playing technique? I imagine that you can draw to more big drawing hands in limit as opposed to pot limit (i.e., you have the proper odds to draw). I imagine you bluff less. I also imagine that there is a lot of money to be had in understanding the subtleties of extracting the maximum number of bets out of your opponent (of which I know very little). Any comments on this topic are appreciated.

4) What are good win rates at casinos and how does the play differ from online?


Please feel free to add any information on the differences between limit and PL O8 that you think a limit O8 n00b might find interesting.

Thanks in advance.

[Felonius_Monk]

Not sure how well I can help here, others who play limit more regularly than me might have more comprehensive advice.

1) I wouldn't get hung up on it, but at the low limits 4 and even 5 BB/100 seems possible long-term. As hand rates are slower and average pots generally bigger, the winrate of a decent O8 limit player will tend to be a scratch higher than an equivalent limit holdem player.

2) Hard to say really. My limited experience of 1/2 O8 (I haven't really ever played that low that I remember) is that the games are VERY soft, say 25PLO8 standard at best. The play at 2/4 and then 3/6, as in holdem, quickly becomes a reasonable amount better. 3/6 and maybe 5/10 would be equivalent to the 100 and 200 PLO8 skill levels, perhaps. But it's all VERY arbitrary.

3) This is a bit too in depth to go into in one post, and again (although I like limit O8 a lot) i'm not sure if I'm the best qualified person to teach in this respect. Preflop, raises (unlike in PLO8) are almost never done with the intention of eliminating opponents or taking the "lead" in a hand (as in holdem) but almost exclusively to swell the size of a pot in which you've got a better than average hand. Thus, you tend not to raise much at all from EP so as not to scare players off marginal hands (i.e. you WANT the A3 and A4 in when you hold A2), and raise liberally with good hands late on once everyone is tied into the pot by putting in one bet (and, perhaps, trying to buy the button too). Postflop it becomes a simple game of expectation and value - raise when you have the best of it, call or fold when the situation suggests.

At the lowest levels, almost every hand will go to a showdown and most tables will be collosally loose-passive so fancy plays are at a minimum. Even check-raises can only be confidently tried against really aggressive types or into a big field, successful bluffs are almost non-existent. You'll often be raising with scratchy values because the field will be large and your hand, though moderate, will be better than average, once everyone is trapped in for one bet. The "promotional raise", and variants thereof, is an important feature in O8, as is defining when your one-way hand may be winnning all of that one way and pumping it. Promo raises probably will be of less value in low limit games where people fold less. Read Michael Cappelletti's O8 book (which is almost exclusively limit-orientated) for some good thought processes on the limit game. Once you start thinking like a limit O8 player (Mathematics, odds, value bets) you'll start playing like one. It's a very analytical game and quite objective and that appeals to me; it may not to you.

4) Pass. I would suggest 2 BB/hr would be fairly reasonable, as a rough stab. The play in the casino will, as in most games, almost certainly be a couple of notches worse and looser.

Monk
xxxxx

[Kuso]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Kuso]

i have bought and read the tenner/krieger and zee books. i thought they were good on the fundamentals, but a lot of subtleties were left out. honestly, i ended up having more (refined) questions after i read the book. i suppose this is a good thing, but....

i have the cappelletti book ordered, but i might not be able to get my hands on it for a while (the shipping was delayed, so it is still sitting at my friend's house). is it markedly better than these two other books?

[edited for spelling]

[Felonius_Monk]

Yeah, the Zee book is pretty rudimentary. I don't think much to Krieger to be honest, not entirely sure how he got such a rep as being a good poker author. His CardPlayer articles seem mostly to be a waste of space. I haven't read his O8 book, though, so can't really comment.

The cappelletti book is a bit more in-depth, and with a few slightly contentious ideas, but it goes into the mathematical thinking of the game in an unusual and oblique way that will appeal to some people and maybe open up a few ideas to you, as well as a few nice strategy bits. Again, however, i wouldn't say it was perfect - he plays a very aggressive game that might not be everyone's cup of tea, and I think it's not as comprehensive as it might be in some areas.

Despite the massive number of great holdem books out there, I still think we're waiting for the first real "bibles" of PLO and omaha 8. Real niche there for somebody.

[Kuso]

[Kuso]

taking a closer look at the stats at .5/1 LO8... most of the solid winners i have (with just over 300 hands) are almost all in the 5-10 bb/100 range, so 5-8 is probably a better estimate for a high sustainable winning rate. i have two winners with 200+ hands that are in the high teens in bb/100, but that could definitely just be a good run of cards.

i imagine that even at 1/2 this drops rather quickly to 5 bb/100 or less just as monk said. i'll leave that datamining for a later date.

[Felonius_Monk]

200 hands is nothing; I'd be amazed if you didnt have people with 20 or even 30 BB/100 after that period, which is of course ridiculous. 5BB/100 might be possible at the 0.5/1 games because, as you said, they suck. I think much more than that is *probably* not sustainable, maybe up to 6 or so.

[GooperMC]