2 overcards with gutshot

[DODGYKEN]

How do you guys play this on the flop? It's $2 to you and there are 2 players still to act behind you.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed)

BB ($35.45)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($28.1)
MP2 ($23.75)
DODGYKEN ($25)
CO ($79)
Button ($22.42)
SB ($91.9)

Preflop: DODGYKEN is MP3 with , . SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, DODGYKEN raises to $2, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, SB (poster) calls $1.75, BB folds.

Flop: ($8.50) , , (4 players)
SB bets $2, DODGYKEN folds, CO calls $2, Button calls $2.

Turn: ($14.50) (3 players)
SB bets $5, CO calls $5, Button folds.

River: ($24.50) (2 players)
SB bets $2, CO calls $2.

Final Pot: $28.50

Results in white below:
CO has 7s 8s (straight, jack high).
SB has Ah Th (one pair, tens).
Outcome: CO wins $28.50.


Thanks,

Martin

[Felonius_Monk]

How passively did the CO play his straight???? Anyways, I think you personally gotta fold to the bet. Problem is if you hit a pair it puts out a LOT of cards that limpy sort of hands could hold. KT, KJ, TQ, garbage like that could all have you in trouble and drawing to a very small number of outs, and the worst thing is that you don't know if any such hands are present. I think once you get 2 calls with position on you you're getting towards being done with hand unless you flop big anyways; don't forget that if you call, you're not closing the betting so someone else might raise. I don't think this is the flop for your hand.

Monk
xxxxx

[Danhdan]

I don't like the raise w/ KQ here at all. It builds up a pot on a hand that can be easily dominated. You could hit Top Pair and still have the worst kicker to a guy who calls w/ AQ. KQ is a trash hand IMO in anything but the last two positions, and on certain NL tables I won't play it at all.

On the flop, you have an $10 pot to call $2 into which is actually giving you your precise odds to call a bet (5.06-1 for a four outer), and if you hit a King or Queen, you might also be good here. But I would have looked at one card here for my Jack and then been done w/ the hand probably. Your implied odds shoot through the roof when such a passive player like the CO is calling all the way down w/ a straight here; I think you double up on this hand minimum if you call that flop bet...but obviously, you fold to a big raise from the people behind you.

With those two guys as the large stacks, it must have gotten better for you there.

[DODGYKEN]

[Bob314]

[Felonius_Monk]

[McMonkey]

IMO, This is one of those situations that depend completely on the table and your opponents. The way I see it there you only have two choices here: fold or raise. I don't think either of them is the correct choice in a generic situation, I'll quickly give my opinion of the merits of each choice and the conditions needed for it to be the best play.

Fold:The pot is not huge at this point and with the non-Broadway flop in a raised pot there's not likely to be a ton of action, unless your opponents are very aggressive or you are and they are calling stations. If you're going to continue you want to do so as cheaply as possible (until you make your hand). If even one of your opponents is aggressive and is going to stay (especially if one of the guys after you stays) you can't afford to stay as the price will be too high for a drawing hand, and with an aggressive opponent a lone K or Q can put you in a very uncomfortable situation. Plus without a bigger pot it doesn't make sense to stay for just one more card, so in this case I think folding would be the best choice. I think in most cases this will be the case, however....

Raise: On the other hand, I have played at enough tight/passive tables to recognize that this is a good situation to raise and see the showdown cheap or win it outright. For this option you need several more factors: You need to be quite sure the players after you will fold (or at least not cold call, as it would be an obvious fold if you are re-raised), you also need to have a good read on the CO. If he is highly aggressive or maniacal you cannot raise, as you don't have a reasonable chance of him folding or checking the turn to you, which is essential factor. But, if the CO will become passive after your flop raise and has a reasonable chance of paying you off if you do hit OR folding to further aggression then I believe a raise is the best choice.

A raise to say $8 or $10 has good fold equity (esp since you raised pf), and buys either a free river card or good chance of taking if down on the turn (choosing between the two is matter of determining if you opponent is calling station passive or weak/tight passive). This play is a little more risky, but I think it works often enough on the right table to be a viable option.[/quote]