how would you play these 2?

[Stl10202]

Hey guys, took a break from PLO but I am back for a little bit. Had a couple hands I wanted to run by and see if I played them ok. Both on some pretty loose agg tables on Party 25. I left the end of the hands off bc it could distort your thinking. Thanks in advance.

HAND 1
***** Hand History for Game 2785618813 *****
$25 PL Omaha - Tuesday, September 27, 18:21:33 EDT 2005
Table Table 37900 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: Kinel ( $11.05 )
Seat 3: BigStuff25 ( $23.83 )
Seat 4: Raptile222 ( $17.25 )
Seat 5: mchine ( $8.70 )
Seat 6: Launagis ( $23.85 )
Seat 7: in_training7 ( $28.55 )
Seat 8: ilovedeath ( $53.63 )
Seat 9: vest22k ( $90.40 )
Seat 1: orangefoxx ( $25 )
mchine posts small blind [$0.10].
in_training7 posts big blind [$0.25].
orangefoxx posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to in_training7 [ Js 4c Ad Kc ]
ilovedeath folds.
vest22k calls [$0.25].
orangefoxx checks.
Kinel folds.
BigStuff25 calls [$0.25].
Raptile222 calls [$0.25].
mchine calls [$0.15].
in_training7 checks.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, 2d, Ac ]
mchine checks.
in_training7 checks.
vest22k checks.
orangefoxx checks.
BigStuff25 checks.
marfor has joined the table.
Raptile222 bets [$1.45].
mchine calls [$1.45].
in_training7 calls [$1.45].
vest22k folds.
orangefoxx calls [$1.45].
BigStuff25 calls [$1.45].

I don't usually do this but I decided to call as the button could have any A or a made straight or flush draw. I knew he wouldn't pay me off if I hit my hand as he is a knowledgeable player but with 4 other donkeys in the hand I knew there would be a couple other callers. Is a call okay here?

HAND 2
Basically I want to know if anyone else would fold this?

***** Hand History for Game 2785611487 *****
$25 PL Omaha - Tuesday, September 27, 18:20:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 38687 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Im_on_a_roll ( $30.36 )
Seat 2: jason5l ( $15.55 )
Seat 3: in_training7 ( $24.40 )
Seat 4: HentheMan ( $47.39 )
Seat 5: stndaman ( $28.15 )
Seat 6: coxnator ( $48.07 )
Seat 7: EvMoCas ( $23.75 )
Seat 8: jazzpip2 ( $26.75 )
Seat 9: nutflopper55 ( $20.66 )
Seat 10: IainMBanks ( $25.60 )
EvMoCas posts small blind [$0.10].
jazzpip2 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to in_training7 [ 8s 8c 7s 6h ]
nutflopper55 folds.
IainMBanks folds.
Im_on_a_roll calls [$0.25].
jason5l calls [$0.25].
in_training7 calls [$0.25].
HentheMan calls [$0.25].
stndaman folds.
coxnator raises [$1.85].
EvMoCas folds.
jazzpip2 calls [$1.60].
Im_on_a_roll calls [$1.60].
jason5l folds.
in_training7 calls [$1.60].
HentheMan calls [$1.60].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, Kd, 7c ]
jazzpip2 checks.
Im_on_a_roll checks.
in_training7 checks.
HentheMan checks.
coxnator bets [$9.15].
jazzpip2 calls [$9.15].
Im_on_a_roll folds.
coxnator: yep
in_training7 folds.
HentheMan folds.

Cox was a very aggressive type and his raise could mean anything. Maybe I just overanalyze things but I also held one of my outs to the boat in case a flush hit the turn and I just hate losing with middle sets when I am not positive I have the best hand. Is this too pansy? Would flat calling be okay here and see what happens on the turn?

[Felonius_Monk]

Hand 1 I lead out. If I check it's with the intention of check-folding. This strategy is better in a game higher than PLO25 as you won't get people chasing you with as many hands, and are more likely to make the semi-bluff work. The Ad makes it less likely a flush draw will call.

Hand 2 you BADLY misplayed. Check-folding middle set is awful. If you check you've got to raise all in. I would usually lead out with middle set but against very poor/aggressive/loose types, check-raising is by no means a bad play. Given your view of Cox, I think check-raising is a good move here. The caller obviously doesn't have KK (he probably has the nut flush draw) and Cox could easily be putting money in here with AA or something like 2 pair. You could well be in with a possibility of putting your stack in three-handed as a 50-60% favourite, so I think you did pansy out here really. Seems to me you played it fine but just inexplicably failed to pull the trigger on the end!

Out of interest, yesterday I was playing against a semi-LAG type moron in a $100 game at Crypto, found myself in the same situation and lead out; he raised me (i would sometimes drop middle set in this spot against a good player - either up against a very strong draw or top set) and I, slightly out of character, decided to push all in. He had AA and I stacked him.

[briachek]

Hand 1: against that many people, I check fold and look for a better opportunity. I think leading out into this many people is suicide, especially at 25 tables.

Hand 2: Against a loose raiser, you have 2 options. Lead out and go all in if raised by preflop raiser (possibly fold to someone else's raise) or check raise all in. Check fold is not an option IMO. If he had KK, oh well, you still have 1 out and its happens plenty in omaha.

[Stl10202]

[briachek]

[Felonius_Monk]

[forssell]

From my experiences in 25 plo its very difficult to drop many out in hand 1, they will call with a range of hands, even with flushdraws (which is very unlikely at least in 2k games), and of course the straight is a real possibility. Not closing the action and a two pair hand I would check-fold this for a pot bet. If however you think you can make people lay down flushes if it hits I would check-call and pot a no-pairing d. At least from my experience in that level people give u more credit for the nut-flush if you called instead of leading and then potting the turn diamond. I agree with Monk that in a higher-limit game leading is a good option, and will most likely result in a raise or fold.

In hand two I think you gotta make a decision preflop, you described the pf raiser as a guy who can pot flop with a range of hands, so if you call preflop and hit the set you will play it (against him at least). If not, fold preflop. With your description of villain the flop looks a good one and Im sticking it in the middle. But IMO the play is clearly to check-raise. He will bet with a variety of hands so let him, if someone comes over the top i would fold without a read, since I think he has KK and your drawing slim or he has a wrap (maybe with flush) and he still might be fav. If the flop caller is slowing the top set it is a terrible play and so be it. I think its much more likely he has a two pair/pair+ shaky draw kind of hand and doesnt want to commit without knowing what others will do.

Okay that was pretty much what others had said too, but I would favor the flop check-raise heavily against leading, that way you give others a better chance to make mistakes imo.