flopped nuts but no redraws

[forssell]

This is one of things that comes up often in Omaha and since at least in the higher limit games people start with good hands they often have redraws so Ive tried a bit of pot control lately, also added some trickiness in the mix.

Party 2k PLO, effective stacks 2k.

A limped 5-way pot, im in the CO with QQ78, flop comes 569hh, i have no hearts. Villain leads from SB for pot -97- and 2 people call to me. I dont really remember SB so that increases the probability he is a pretty typical player, not bad not great not tricky etc. since he is in SB it increases a bit the probability he doesnt have redraws, also with 2 callers some of the drawing hands seem to be elsewhere.

Turn (485) comes Kx, SB leads pot, folded to me. I call planning to call any river bet after a draw-completing card, pushing a brick (well almost 100% he has the 87 too), and if a draw completes Im planning to bet 700 after its checked to me.

River (1465) 3h, check I bet 700.

I have no idea if villain has thoughts on my play, but I would be surprised if he thought I was a big bluffer.

[Kuso]

[forssell]

[briachek]

[forssell]

I havent done this kind of stuff almost ever. When I was dropping by at a local live game people were doing it quite frequently. The thing is that game plays nothing like the online games I play. On the live game people start with seemingly any four and chase 8-high flushes etc. So I thought my move (call turn bet river) was a pretty good one but hadnt really thought it through. If SB is a good player, he will see that there are 3 callers to the flop pot bet. On a 569hh board realistic possibilities are a set, nutflush-draw and a straight. What could the two callers who dropped out on turn have? Probably one has nut-flush draw and other a set or twopair+8T type a hand. So if I was SB and saw this action and then a call from LP on turn I would find it a bit suspect. Normally I would have to have a monster draw to keep chasing. The thing is, if I had straight+redraw I would re-raise flop or push the turn surely, that is the play for sure. So If Im not a loonie I should have the straight without redraws or set+flush draw (unlikelier since two callers on flop).

So when I thought about it afterwards it seemed SB should be able to make the call. He is calling 700 to win 1450 (chances for a scoop are surely minimal) and it seems a good price since a flush doesnt seem probable for me. For me to bet on the end I think I have to go all-in (almost pot), that might give me some chance to take it, though I still think SB should call here. That of course leads to the conclusion that if I had only the nutflush draw I might want to draw only to that on turn, but with apparent blockers on flop callers hands it probably would still be -ev. Furthermore, would it be so that SB should push the river here? The flushdraw does seem unlikely for me so maybe here he could have a spot to blow me off a tricky straight without redraws? And if I thought he should call a push here then surely its better to push yourself.

Okay so the situation was more complicated than I thought and I guess I have to think about it a bit more. Maybe against a more timid player the call-call-push line would be a valid one, and better yet if he is in the blinds. Against a solid-tricky guy I guess I need to push the river if Im the bettor on the hand with just the straight.

Btw I like the check-call, check-raise line for a straight-no redraws which briancheck mentioned about. In my game there is a good chance the turn might get checked through if its not multiway but probably thats better than to face a huge decision on the river. Also if the bord would be 589 the check-raise line would be even better because if turn blanks the river has gazillion scarecards.

Yep I bet 700 on the river and villain did think for a while but called and we splitted.

[Felonius_Monk]

I like your play a lot. I think I'm more likely to want to raise the turn if there's a few opponents in, to perhaps clean up the hand a little from various non-nut draws (or at least make them pay on 4th street, as you obviously won't get a dime out of a busted flush on the river). However, against one oppo I think you covered the bases really nicely - you made it look like you're drawing all along, and the way he played another 78 seems likely. So you gave yourself lots of bluffing equity and also kept your 78 nicely under wraps. I think that's about the best way to play this hand against sophisticated opponents. I do this sometimes even in the 100, 200 and 400 games though to be honest more often than not i push the turn; in the 2k game i'm thinking the way you played it is much better.