Please don't feed the rake

[briachek]

***** Hand History for Game 2858133672 *****
0/0 Omaha Game Table (PL) - Wed Oct 19 21:27:22 EDT 2005
Table Table 36548 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: WindsOfWar20 ( $15.20)
Seat 2: Robert101 ( $15.15)
Seat 3: PcktJokers72 ( $94.03)
Seat 4: tdpalermo ( $15)
Seat 5: Nightware1 ( $25)
Seat 6: boogerfish ( $23.25)
Seat 7: briachek4 ( $68.46)
Seat 8: tycobb27 ( $39.50)
Seat 9: sorluc ( $0)
Seat 10: IainMBanks ( $24.75)
boogerfish posts small blind (0.10)
briachek4 posts big blind (0.25)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to briachek4 [ Qh, Tc, Ac, 2c ]
tycobb27 calls (0.25)
IainMBanks folds.
WindsOfWar20 folds.
Robert101 folds.
PcktJokers72 calls (0.25)
boogerfish calls (0.15)
briachek4 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kh, As, 8d ]
boogerfish checks.
briachek4 checks.
tycobb27 checks.
PcktJokers72 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jh ]
boogerfish bets (0.95)
briachek4 calls (0.95)
tycobb27 calls (0.95)
PcktJokers72 folds.
** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ]
boogerfish bets (1)
briachek4 raises (3) to 3
tycobb27 folds.
boogerfish raises (11.70) to 12.70
briachek4 calls (9.70)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $27.80 | Rake: $1.45
Board: [ Kh As 8d Jh 3d ]
boogerfish balance $23.25, bet $13.90, collected $13.90, net +$0 [ 5d Qc 3h Td ] [ a straight, ten to ace -- As,Kh,Qc,Jh,Td ]
briachek4 balance $68.46, bet $13.90, collected $13.90, net +$0 [ Qh Tc Ac 2c ] [ a straight, ten to ace -- As,Kh,Qh,Jh,Tc ]


In the heat of the moment, i know it can see like raising the river after I reraise is a good idea. However, if i'm bluffing, i'm not calling and a good opponent isn't gonna bluff there. You will only be called by the same straight so don't feed the rake.

Sometimes its good to reraise even if you think its a split if there are enough other hands out there that may do it but this is not the time.

[JDLush]

Gotta disagree there. If it was 4 to a str8 on board then maybe, but with only 3 broadways out there I fire at it till i can't fire no more. Too many guys will bet/call with a set or even top 2 here, if you don't raise it you are losing a lot more over the long run then the little bit of rake will cost you.

[GooperMC]

[briachek]

i normally agree that i push the nuts but think of it this way....who's calling a max reraise? Not someone with a set or lower straight. If he wants to reraise less, that can get a lesser hand to call. Not a max raise. Plus, if he pays attention, I'm a good player. Would a good player raise that river with anythihng less than broadway?

If he reraised me another 5 or so, i wouldn't complain. But he max raised me. Even the biggest fish is gonna fold sets since no other straights are possible besides QT.

[JDLush]

Who's calling a max reraise? At $25 PLO/PLO8 on Party? Is that some kind of rhetorical question?

Push it. Push it hard.

[Kuso]

i agree... push it.

it only takes one pot in a blue moon to make up for the "lost" rake. you'll get more than that, i imagine.

[briachek]

i think of anyone here, I have the most experience at PLO25 (42,000 hands) and this is the most obvious chop I have been involved in a long time. Losing 70 cents or 1.50 a hand due to rake adds up over time too. If there are other straights possible, i push. 1 straight possible and I'm 100% sure he has it. What other hand does this guy have? A set? Who max reraises my bet on the river with a set?

[lamaros]

I agree, unless of course you know the guy is a bit of an idiot.

But almost certainly a reraise like that is a split.

[Kuso]

let me refine my point.

using pto and pahud, i would only call if the player is a substantial winning player over, say, 1000 hand or more... or if i know based on experience that they don't go to the felt without a solid hand (in this case, the nuts).

for everything else... yeah, i've seen it, lower str8s, sets, etc.... and i would put as much money in as possible. hell, i've even jammed with a losing hand when i was so drunk that i couldn't really make out my cards (more accurately, the board -- now you know why i like 4-color decks -- also note that i currently have a 1 liter beer limit for poker over .05/.10).

unless you have a _dependable_ read that this guy has the goods, i would take him to the felt.

the rake is about $1 more -- your share is $0.50 (correct me if i am wrong with this calculation) -- for the potential of an additional $10 of his money. You don't see people donking 5% of the time -- one out of twenty?

if you say "no", i will gladly defer to your experience.

[JDLush]

Well put Kuso. If it's looked at as a 1/20 proposition it sure seems like a no-brainer to me. If it happens to piss off the other player and tilt him, even more betterer.

[briachek]

how about looking at it from his perspective. I raised him on the river when he has the nuts and there is no other obvious hand that I could have as the river 3 didn't help me. What kind of hand must I have to call a max reraise on that river? If i am bluffing, I fold. If I have the same straight, I call and split the pot. If I have a good hand like a set, I fold to that kind of pressure because that reraise shows that the straight is out there. If he reraised me less than full pot, i wouldn't be as pissed off.

and no, i've NEVER seen some reraise without the nut straight when there is ONLY one straight possible. If there are multiple straights possible, i agree that i will go all in. I have never once seen this kind of action on this type of board and it wasn't split.

[Kuso]

ok, this is slightly different than the model we're looking for, but it demonstrates the point. the fact that the hero is AoG is just icing on the cake.

***** Hand History for Game 2817874258 *****
$25 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Monday, October 03, 11:52:37 EDT 2005
Table Table 37070 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 8: gamesmm ( $39.29 )
Seat 4: CJP37 ( $10 )
Seat 10: rick14620us ( $27.37 )
Seat 6: mikeski22 ( $28.21 )
Seat 7: Dr_Welby ( $44.91 )
Seat 5: GreatWonka ( $23.75 )
Seat 9: Blaabar ( $12.15 )
Seat 1: AmourOfGod ( $22.90 )
Seat 2: h0ld_em_nerd ( $25.17 )
rick14620us posts small blind [$0.10].
AmourOfGod posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
h0ld_em_nerd folds.
CJP37 calls [$0.25].
GreatWonka calls [$0.25].
mikeski22 calls [$0.25].
Dr_Welby folds.
gamesmm folds.
Blaabar calls [$0.25].
rick14620us calls [$0.15].
AmourOfGod checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, Kd, Qc ]
rick14620us checks.
AmourOfGod checks.
CJP37 checks.
GreatWonka checks.
mikeski22 bets [$1.45].
kdogpenny1 has joined the table.
Blaabar folds.
rick14620us calls [$1.45].
AmourOfGod calls [$1.45].
CJP37 folds.
GreatWonka folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
rick14620us checks.
AmourOfGod bets [$5.60].
mikeski22 calls [$5.60].
rick14620us folds.
** Dealing River ** [ 7d ]
AmourOfGod is all-In.
mikeski22 calls [$15.60].
AmourOfGod shows [ 7s, Js, Ks, Ts ] a straight, ten to ace.
mikeski22 shows [ As, Ad, 4s, Kh ] three of a kind, aces.
AmourOfGod wins $45.85 from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
There was no qualifying low hand.
CJP37 has left the table.

[Kuso]

regardless, i'll still believe briachek when he says that it doesn't happen often enough in his experience (particularly with only one str8 possible) to make it +EV.

[lamaros]

I agree with briachek, and thats from experience playing the idiots at the penny stakes. If the worst players don't do it I hardly expect it to happen often.

[Kuso]

i wonder if a pot-sized raise by B would have put a lid on it? the smaller than pot raise might look a bit suspicious to some.