100plo8 - playing top set versus nut flush draw

[Kuso]

I put Harman on the nut flush draw, but I think his (or her... I'm going with his) push on the flop was a bit dubious. Here are the two dimes numbers:


pokenum -o8 tc as kd ks - qc ac 5c ad -- 7c qd kc
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Kc 7c Qd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Ks Tc Kd 495 585 226 9 0 0 0 0.664
Ac Qc 5c Ad 226 226 585 9 160 0 0 0.336

Given that I CRed, I hope he put me on a set. As such, is it really safe to push given that you can basically assume zero fold equity?

My thought is that Harman overplayed his hand. Your thoughts?

I also like the way I played the hand. I'll share my thoughts with you... please critique.



$100 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Table Table 67517 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: alkicker ( $142.42 )
Seat 8: Harman75 ( $159.01 )
Seat 3: modoc ( $222.76 )
Seat 4: Redbirds ( $84 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $101.90 )
Seat 6: badonkdonk ( $40.95 )
Seat 10: game_of_luck ( $82.40 )
Seat 7: RandomStu ( $117.75 )
game_of_luck posts small blind [$0.50].
alkicker posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero
Hero calls [$1].
This was an aggressive game with almost every hand being raised pf. As I was out of position, I didn't want to pump up the pot so that a pot-size reraise would be huge. I also like to limp-call so that I can disguise my hand and trap precisely in the way that I did. Maybe this is to fancy. It seems to work well, though.
modoc folds.
Redbirds folds.
badonkdonk folds.
RandomStu folds.
o1iOl has joined the table.
Harman75 raises [$4.50].
This could mean anything.
game_of_luck folds.
nonpoisonous has joined the table.
alkicker folds.
Hero calls [$3.50].
I close the action... easy call.
** Dealing Flop **
Hero checks.
OK, I check, Harman is going to bet. I intend to CR. I'll hate myself if Harman checks behind and the flush card comes. If that happens, it will be easy to let go of my hand if Harman bets the flush board with a pot bet. I'll still feel a little bitter.
Harman75 bets [$10].
Right on cue.
Hero raises [$40].
As planned.
Harman75 raises [$120].
Hhhhmmmm... as I mentioned above, this telegraphed the nut flush draw. I was thinking that maybe there was a nut low backdoor draw or some other good draw, but no. A5 ain't exactly what I would want for by backdoor low draw. You can't really count an A as an out, as it might fill me up. Does Harman think I'm going to fold given that I am representing a strong hand? I don't understand this. Comments appreciated.
Hero is all-In [$57.40]
Call and cross my fingers.
** Dealing Turn **
** Dealing River **
ahhhh... just in case.
Harman75 shows [ Qc, Ac, 5c, Ad ] two pairs, aces and sevens.
Hero shows [ Tc, As, Kd, Ks ] a full house, Kings full of sevens.
Harman75 wins $32.60 from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and sevens.
Hero wins $202.30 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of sevens.
There was no qualifying low hand.

[Xaston]

Fold pre flop.

[Kuso]

[JDLush]

I play that exactly the same way, but I might put harman on QQ after reraising your c/r. Either way, with only one low card out there I pump it till I can't pump no more.

I guess maybe he could have AJTx or something with a lot of outs, but I guessed QQ when I first saw it, so I'll stick with that. AAQ5 tho? He must have put you on a steal, or more likely didn't put you on anything and just liked his AA a lot.

Xaston must be kidding, I'd almost never fold that hand preflop.

[Kuso]

[GooperMC]

[Kuso]

i don't have enough stats to make a meaningful comment on high only hands. some of my losers were from "the drinking sessions" and others were missed draws. you need a lot of instances for these to smooth out the expected variance. iirc, i've recently had some big broadway straight hands get counterfeited on the river, so...

i think one reason for playing these hands is that you can get the occassional stack, but you can also get out if you whiff on the flop (hopefully). even with two low cards on the board, if you hit your set or have a flush draw, you can pressure an obvious low hand and perhaps get them to fold -- esp. if the turn is a high card. interestingly, i think getting the fold is easier at the 100 level than the 25, thus creating more value for this type of play.

i also think that these hands have some advertising value. people get curious if you jam with them, and they will pay off to see what you've got. i raise these hands in LP, and it really seems to confound people. they put me on low cards, so they don't buy it when high cards come. like i said before, iirc, i think i got a guy all in on the turn when i had broadway, and he was drawing to 2 or 3 outs for a split (he hit) -- he was certain that his TP was good. anyway, raising these late and/or trapping with them early allows for your low hands to get paid off a bit better than normal. i guess what i am trying to say is that there is a metagame component that i think is important.

maybe i'm overthinking this.

also, fwiw, i don't play any four cards over 9. if there is a 9 involved, i want something really nice with the other cards like TJQ or QKK or something like that (suited aces are nice, too). i am even careful with double-paired hands like TTJJ -- I prefer to play these IP.

[Xaston]

Fold pre flop.

[Kuso]

[Xaston]

You have a high only hand in early position and no reason to believe the pot won't get raised behind you, raised and re-raised, or just folded around to the blinds. I think high only hands are only profitable if you can get in real cheap, in late position, in a family pot.

[Kuso]

[GooperMC]

[Kuso]

mainly from 2-low... but also from the others.

i think that you are assuming that the pf raiser has A2 or A23. in this case, he has A5. in fact, i think at the 100+ games, it is MORE likely for the raiser not to have A2 (unless with AA) when pfr. furthermore, there are no shortage of players who play predominantly high hands for a pfr from late position. he may dislike low cards as much as i do.

a few scenarios:

- villain has A2... i can charge him to see the turn if two low cards hit on the flop. in fact, HU, he's not getting proper odds to bet/call. he might even put me on a low draw, too, and bet out with a weak high such as 1pr. i can take the pot if one of his low cards are counterfeited or if he whiffs on the turn. we all know not to play for half the pot... yet this is probably what he will end up doing.

- villain has non-nut low... if he shows any aggression, he's going to get played back at and have no idea where he stands. do i have him beat for the high or the low or both?

- villain has any kind of low (or not) and gets a good nut draw to the high (this is what happened)... see hand.


villain has absolutely no idea what i have, so he's screwed unless he flops a nut high or nut low and freerolls me. of course, i probably won't put any more money into a pot that i am getting freerolled.

the best case scenario for villain is that he flops the nut low draw AND the nut flush draw AND I hit my set (e.g., my AA23 hand for a similar example). even then, the only way villain can move forward profitably is if he thinks he has fold equity (iirc... forgot the numbers).

i'm not even going to discuss people who will look for any excuse to try to bluff me off my hand by betting scare cards (e.g., high boards).

dude, there are a million and one ways to get paid off with no low oop. the cards have to cooperate by giving villain something to work with, but that happens often enough to make it worthwhile.

does this make any sense?

[Xaston]

[GooperMC]