Words from an SnG wannabe... Beyond 'Beginner' advice?

[musicman80]

[Telemachus]

[Three Outer]

Check this out:
Palman is one of the foremost experts at SNG's and this is a set of personal notes he compiled. I find them to be beyond helpful and have read them probably a dozen times.

[Nashvegas]

Hi, and welcome to BTP!

Believe it or not, I was in you shoes about 1 year ago at a now-defunct internet community for poker players, and I'm really humbled to now be listed in the group of people whose posts/articles you enjoy reading!

Here are some quick tips for you, as I'm pretty busy this morning:

(1) Play a little tighter early -- no KJs, KTs. You want to make sure you are only playing hands that have a reasonably good chance to take someone else's entire stack. Just think, if you have KTs, whose stack can you take? If you flop Kxx, you won't be taking anyone's stack, because few people with worse hands than you will be going all in. You're hoping for Txx or a flush, and that's not enough to make a stand on IMO.

(2) Don't play pot-odds or any other ring game concepts once it gets down to 5 people left. Just try to get into the money. This means folding lots of hands that might be the best hand. Get rid of those plays where you go all in over the top of raisers without a great hand. You don't want to shove chips out there as much as you would in a ring game, and you're just not experienced enough to make those plays in an SNG format that doesn't really reward them.

Sounds like you should be off to a good start if you keep playing tight early, try to steal the blinds once you get to level 5, and don't get OVERINVOLVED after the flop.

[TexasKowboy]

Welcome To BTP!

Very good reply Telemachus!

I can only add a couple things. First look at my articel on MTT and adapt it to your SnG play. In a SnG you are going to find a couple players that think they are Gus. When you get a good starting hand get heads up with one of these player's. If you hit anything with a top 10 hand, CALL HIS BLUFF! He will be over betting junk. Take his chips.

UB SnG's are harder then any other site. You might want to look at Poker Stars or Party's if you want to play one of the major sites that work with PT. Personally I recommend one of the Prima sites or my SnG home Bodog.

[Cactus Jack]

[Nashvegas]

I'd like to echo the sentiments of whoever referenced palman's post from UPF -- that post was the starting point for my SNG career and allowed me to skip at least 6 months worth of learning curve.

The only edits I would make to palman's suggestions are to be a little more formulaic, less creative, and more straightforward at very low limit (i.e. $10+1 or lower) play. This is because nobody will notice how you play, and almost all good players are too apt to overestimate the skill level of the opposition. I usually play 3 SNGs at a time if I'm playing any at all, and if I'm playing a long session I will stagger-start 4 SNGs if possible. I ** do NOT ** recommend that you do this as a beginner, but let it be a signal to you about how much time I spend reading players besides a simple tight/loose note determined after the first 10 hands.

[musicman80]

[Telemachus]

I will have a go at the queries you raise over my response.

Your marginal hands question- early, as in the first three levels, don't enter a pot with an ace worse than AK in early position. In later position, you can loosen up a little, but I wouldn't be raising here, even with AQs- better to just limp and see the flop. The blinds are still very small, and you still don't want to be getting involed without a hand you know, i.e. don't just think, is the best. So- fold everything early up to AQ, and, with that, I'd be tempted to try limping, rather than raising. In later position you can loosen up a little, but worse than Aj is risky, IMO.

At the later stages, but when we are down to 6 or so, and blinds up to 50 and 100, you have to loosen up. Hands like Ax become playable, especially late pos, and especially in an unraised pot. I find that at the cheap SnGs you can get sometimes away with much smaller steals than the conventional pot sized steals- have a pop with A2 for a raise of 1.5 BB will often make everyone fold. When the blinds are getting this high, you get considerable equity with the chips you save here.

When the blinds go up to 75 and 150 and you have say 800, and there are still 6 people left, you have to start getting aggressive, and looser, clearly. This is a situation where you have to start acquiring chips to survive, and so conventional SnG theory of playing survival poker doesn't apply.

As a general rule of thumb, the fewer people at the table, the looser you can afford to be, and the fewer chips you have in proportion to the blinds, the looser you have to be. Most important in an SnG is the size of the other players stacks. If 3 people are less than 2 BBs, you can still fold to the money.This ain't going to happen very often though.

At this level, when your money finish is at threat, this is where feel comes in- you have to use a combination of big raises, looser starting requirements, and re-raises, based on the notes that you as a scrupulous note taker on your opponents have made from the start. If someone has been over aggressive, re raise him all in when you get A Js. If someone is being very tight, put a raise on the button with garbage to steal their by now significant blinds. etc etc.

4 handed and first to act, remember that this is the bubble for most SnGs, so chip stacks are all important. I am more inclined not to play the Ax and Kx hands that would often be profitable in cash games here, because your primary objective is to wait for someone to get knocked out. This means that, in fact, it can often be right to fold big hands, like AK, if you are not much ahead of the shortest stack. On the other hand, if you are the shortest stack, you should be more inclined to take a marginal gamble, as you may be in imminent danger of getting blinded out.

In the example that I quote with four people and one very short stack you must be very careful esp with the big connector hands Aq and AK. If the other 2 big stacks show any aggression, you have to fold, as the worst thing in this spot is to go out in 4th. Go passive. Limp, even w AKs which is usually massive 4 way. If raised all in by the short stack, fine to call. If re raised by the others, get out. And remember these hands are still an underdog to a measly pair of 2s, if they go to the river, which they will all in.

In the other example, where you are the short stack, forget about suitedness, and prepare to push. However, keep in mind what you may get called with. Your point about A x is right- it is poor. Your average opponent is more likely to call you w A8 than Q 10. So beware moving in with small aces- you could easily be dominated, and, if so, much better to have two live cards. But, with 5 BB or less left and the short stack, you are desperate and do need to move with pretty much anything.

Hope this helps. Am sure I have improved my own play thinking these concepts through again!

[Cactus Jack]

I'm going to give my thoughts and let the experts correct me.

A-T

I play 'em, but very carefully. In a $10 SNG, my opponents are going to play A-anything. A-T is a better kicker than most get. I'll limp and play it close to the vest. At the first sign of aggression, I'm done with it. But I often pick up a nice pot without risking a lot of chips. This is probably the only time I don't play extremely tight.

Blinds getting ridiculous (75-150)

This is only the start of the tourney to me. I don't even worry at all if I don't play a hand for the first three rounds. If I do, I seem to lose more often than I win, because I risk become too agressive too early. I seem to play better from behind. If I'm still there when they hit 100-200, then I'm a happy camper. I only need to win two or three pots to stick around to the very end, to get to the money, so when the blinds get big, I'm ready to eat. It sounds to me like you're getting antsy too early. As in all of life, you've got more time than you think.

Blind stealing

To me, this is where the art of playing SNGs comes in. I love this part, because it allows me to outplay my opponents. First, I don't look to be stealing 50 or 75TC. There are still too many players who call everything. Second, I may not have enough of a read, yet. At some point, somone is going to express their dismay over an opponent's really stupid play. This tells me this guy might--MIGHT--have a clue. Most of my opponents have all they can do to play their own hands. Only one, or at most two, can play theirs and mine. So I watch them when the blinds get up to 100-200. When they limp, I go for a big raise. If I'm down to 5 BB or less, it may be time to gamble and go all in if I've got anything at all worth playing. Most times when it gets late, they fold to aggression. By then, I've shown enough good hands they believe me. The only thing that concerns me is if I'm trying to steal at the same time my opponent-with-barely-a-clue decides to do the same.

I never show a bluff, only good hands. I want them to think that if I'm in the pot, they better have the goods. Many people say show a bluff early so you can get callers when you have a good hand. Not me. I don't want callers. Stealing blinds is how I survive when I have to survive, so if they think I've got the goods, I'm more likely to get their blinds when I _really_ need them. When I do have the goods, I'll get all the callers I need, which is only one or two, anyway. If you don't play draws, then you don't need a lot of callers to pay off when you hit.

End game

Trying to read between the lines, I read you are more concerned about not losing than winning. You seem to be playing scared. Marginal hands early in the tourney go up in value as each opponent says "gg". They go WAY up in value as the blinds increase and they come around really often. This is another reason I love play pot limit SNGs; the morons can't go all in pre-flop with their anything-suited hands, and three-gap connectors. They have to play post-flop and they can't. If I'm at a table where there are raises pre-flop and checks to the river post-flop, I'm grinning ear to ear. Any who make it to top 5 are my butt-boys.

My philosophy is from a Zen saying. Advance with bayonette forward. If you meet mush, continue. If you meet steel, withdraw. By the time it gets down to 5, I know who will push back with steel and who has a willow branch. I don't worry about being short-stacked, as long as I'm still in the game. It only takes one pot to get ahead of the blinds, and I try to win them one at a time. The best players are thinking in smaller increments than the rest of the table.


Ok, masters, where am I off?


CJ

[TexasKowboy]

[S]

[musicman80]

Well, everyone - a big thanks for helping me with just a few more tips that really have sharpened my confidence. I don't have statistically-justifiable results, but I certainly feel like I'm doing better than before. In my last 5 SnG's, I only finished out of the money twice - one 4th finish (those really hurt!) and one 7th (my first ever!). The rest were even with a first place, a second place, and a third place. While the total number of games I've played (since I've started tracking my wins and losses) is only 12, my ITM is 42% and my ROI is 21%, with an average finish of ~3.9. Not too bad, considering I would always feel uncomfortable once the blinds got to 75/150 with 5-7 players left.

Now I only feel uncomfortable when there's 4 players left... I realize I've still got a lot more games to play before I can attest to any certain victories. But I think CactusJack really hit the nail right on the head when he sensed my fear of losing. I suppose I still have a fear of losing, but I'm learning to fight it. I realize that even with a 40-50% ITM, I will still lose half of my matches! And also, I've learned how to play a little smarter when the blinds start to get stealable. The other big improvement in my play is that I am not quite so anxious to just push all-in when I am <= 5BB or so. I'm still a bit antsy, but I suppose that will work itself out over time, now that I know the problem is almost entirely mental. I've also stopped limping with things like KT and KJ early in the match - because as NashVegas said - there's little value in playing these kinds of hands early on, when you're probably most likely to just be 2nd best or worse.

In my first-ever 1st place finish, it was certainly great to see that my saw flop vs. won ratio was 15/15 (no joke!!).

I've got a long way to go, and I hope these forums can keep me sharp in my game. But I certainly feel like I'm off to a much more confident start. We'll see how it goes, I guess!

[Cactus Jack]

Congratulations on your successes, MM. I told you these guys are the best teachers.

When it comes to the end game, Telemachus said it best. "It comes down to instinct and feel." At the end of a tourney, when we're down to 5 and the blinds are threatening to wipe out anyone with less than a thousand chips, I come alive. Before that, I'm pretty docile and very tight. But at the point of seeing the finish line, I'm unleashed. I play extremely aggressive. Marginal hands like Ax that I was pitching into the muck at Level 2 and 3, I'm raising, now. I play the hands, now, that others go bust with on the first round. If the board pairs my hand--and I mean ANY pair--I'm betting like a madman.

For two reasons: One, it's very unlikely anyone else has a pair. And, two, most people are just like you. Their backside openings get tightened up to the extreme. Most just want to make it to the payoff. I'm like Doyle; I wanna win! If I'm betting, I'm raising. I'm not bluffing when I bet out. I expect to win the hand. By the end, I know what they're going to play and how they are going to play it. I can tell when they have a hand and when they don't. They simply do not have any concept of changing gears at the level you and I are playing. Most have not finished ITM often enough to develop the instinct and feel. Let's face it: most have gotten there through luck far more than they've gotten there through skill. Luck can get you in the money, but skill wins.

Maybe you should invest some of your BR in playing 6 player games? See which hands can win when it gets shorthanded. Maybe play a couple of heads-up, to get more experience at finishing off your opponent. You just gotta get in there and be aggressive when the time comes.

Doyle says he has two gears. Low and High. He has no second gear. He's either folding or raising, no in between, like calling. That's the way you play the game, and especially when they start to pay you for playing.

You should pat yourself on the back to get to the point you've gotten. I've noticed in the last week that it's getting much, MUCH harder to get ITM even at the $10 level. Players on PP, notoriously loose, are playing much tighter. It wasn't unusual yesterday to see 8 left when the blinds got up to 50/100. That wouldn't have been believable two weeks ago. I kid you not. Where once you could literally buy in and click the Away button and get fourth, if not third, now you'd be lucky to get 6 or 7. I consider myself very fortunate to have been playing when you could make it to 3 without being very good, so I got a lot of short-handed experience. Now, you have to be a pretty good player to get there. (They still don't play post-flop well at all, so I have that advantage.) If this trend continues, I have no idea where a beginner will be able to go to have an easier time of it. So, you are doing very well, indeed.

Best wishes.