VP$iP in 7card stud

[Tepshen73]

[Juskimo]

[flafishy]

I don't really think you should be concerned with those holdem stats in 7 stud. So many more variables. What other cards are on the board? Is it a passive table or an aggreesive one? Where are you sitting in relation to the bringin? Just too many variables to be able to nail down what your VPIP is and all that stuff.

[Juskimo]

[emmasdad]

Has anyone configured PT Stud Beta to account for the ante structure of different sites? For example, Party .50/1 has a .25 ante, the same ante as Pacific's 2/4 game. Party's ante is quite high. Pacific's, relatively low (ok, it is a guilty pleasure, the 7-stud players at Pacific are horrible). These are two very different games.

Obviously, the range of hands has to open up with an ante structure like Party's, especially in an unraised pot. .25 to call when the pot is already 2.25 after the bring in is a good price for a lot of marginal hands, especially in the passive games usually found at that limit.

My numbers, after only 1200 hands of Party .5/1, are VP$IP 32.27!!! Seems way too high, but I am +3.5 BB/100. I suspect a larger sample would lower both of those numbers.

My 2/4 VP$IP, after 650 hands so again not a large enough sample, is 15.55. I am also -4.2BB/100. I'll be interested to see how these numbers come out over 10k hands.

Flafishy and Jus, eventually these numbers should converge for any given range of opponents and table types, so that the stats will have meaning. I agree that your reads and table feel should influence your decision at hand, and correctly reading the cards that are out and knowing which cards are live is critical, but over the long run these stats should be a decent gauge of your game. I think other key stats, besides VP$IP and 3rd St. Raise%, will be 6th street seen and W$SD, and the correlation between those.

Good question T.

[emmasdad]

The PT Stud stats for the weekend, playing mostly 1/2 high with .25 ante and .50 bring in:

Hands - 357 (low sample, yes)

VP$IP 15.41%
Won$ at SD - 53.13%
3rd st raise - 12.04%
AF by street:
3rd - 2.2
4th - 1.64
5th - 2.64
6th - 1.69
7th - 1.71 (should I value bet/raise more often here? This is the only stat I question long-term.)

PTBB/100 - +13.7

These numbers are much more in line with what I expect long term profitable numbers to be. I think the Won$ at SD number is even ok, given the low limit chasers, and making them pay to see sixth street. With fewer players or heads up at later streets, this number should be higher, I'm guessing about 60%+


Comments? I'd love to keep this thread alive.

[Tepshen73]

[Juskimo]

I havent had a chance to configure it yet (bar>poker), but off the top of my head I would say that my V$ip is probably around 25%, but my AF is going to be much lower across the board than yours will. This is due more to my playing H/L more than anything else, which means that I have a much greater range of hands that I want multiple people in.

Then again (at least while still at the .50/1 party tables) I may have a greater range of opening hands. My range right now is
any three 8 or lower
any three suited
any wrap
any overpair to the board 10 or above
any pair 8 or lower with a low sidecar

My biggest leak is probably hanging on to low 2 pairs with no low. I am assuming that PT will show that I call down way too often with losing 2 pair.

Again, this is just off the top of my head.

As far as your 3rd street AF, you need to ask yourself as soon as you get your hand whether you want to play HU or you want to play in a multiway pot. Limping that often probably means you are not recognizing spots where you want to isolate.

-Jus

[Tepshen73]

I only want to play heads up with 10's or higher. Is that to tight?

[Rhound50]

[emmasdad]

I agree with Rhound50. I do not play all wired pairs, it just depends on the action. If I am at a totally passive table, I will play all wired pairs. If the table is aggressive, then only from late position in an unraised pot with a couple of limpers (I might try a steal raise if first in). You need to hit trips or develop something else by 5th or forget it.

There is no simple formula in 7 stud. The correct play often depends upon how the table is playing. Raising with a big pair at the super loose passive low limit games that I have been in lately has caused a big downswing in my BB/100. I have started over the last two days treating them like smaller pairs, only limping on third unless first in in late position then trying a steal raise. My results have shown improvement. I get aggressive on 4th if I improve or it looks like nobody hit anything, and it seems to be working. It goes against my nature to limp with split Ks and no aces showing, but like I said my results are improving. I think it is like that fish theory described elsewhere in this forum - you can beat most of them, but there is one that will beat you and that is all it takes.

[Rhound50]

Emmasdad, I agree with your ideas with big pairs. I read Chip Reese's stud section of SS2 and it says that with big pairs you want to raise to thin the competition. In the small limit party game its is totally and completely useless to try to thin the field, no one folds so why built up a monster pot with just one pair. I have played these hands very passively and tried to make 2 pair or better before I start to raise.

[emmasdad]