Playing middle pairs on flop when holding an overpair?

[shoesnatcher]

Dear Fellow Players;
First of all I want to thank each of you who has responded to past posts. Recently, I have been having some problems playing middle pairs and getting myself into trouble. I would greatly appreciate any comments/suggestions on how you would have played the hand below. I believe my mistake here was calling all in at 25/50 blinds. I had at least 10x the BB and I could have continued to play in the SNG instead I got married to my handed and busted out. I am particularly curious as to your opinions on my re-raise on the flop (too much/too risky?). Thanks in advance for your help.

Shoesnatcher

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed)

SB (t775)
BB (t2350)
UTG (t1610)
MP1 (t1820)
MP2 (t3610)
CO (t1885)
Hero (t1450)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
UTG calls t50, 1 fold, MP2 raises to t200, 1 fold, Hero calls t200, 2 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t525) , , (2 players)
MP2 bets t300, Hero raises to t700, MP2 raises to t3200, Hero calls t550 (All-In).

Turn: (t4975) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t4975) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t4975

[Kuso]

what level is this (trying to gauge likely savviness of villain)?

i'm no SNG expert, but i can't say i like the idea of putting any more chips in on the flop at the lower buy-ins. this guy is representing an overpair (i guess he had TT... can't see in post), and you're losing to everything but 77 and 88. a lot of stars folks only bet when they have hands.

some people will steal these kinds of pots with overs, but sometimes i think you've got to give in. if you think he's just doing a routine CB with overs (i.e., he's that kind of player). then your raise on the flop has some potential, but you've got to fold to the reraise. again, unless you're up against a good, tricky player, there are few people who can make that reraise with air.

other points:

- if this is an SNG, i'm not sure i like calliing that raise as the first caller with only the blinds left to act. if the blinds drop, you basically have to fold to any bet on an flop with overcards and you may be up against a bigger PP anyway. if you're first in with this hand, i think it's worth a raise. also, if there are lots of callers before, it's possible to call for set value even for a raise. as it is... ugh. maybe you can double up if you get a set, but you're paying a dear price for a two-outer.

- if you're going to raise the flop, i think you need to push. it's too easy for a weaker hand (e.g., overs) to call 400 more for a 1525 pot. even if it's technically wrong, you're not punishing the draw enough. of course, this is why i don't really like putting any more money in on the flop anyway.

just my 2 cents... ymmv.

[shoesnatcher]

[Kuso]

[Stoneburg]

[EscapePlan9]

I would have folded PF. I do not like playing middle pairs to 4x BB raises late in the game without anyone else calling the raise yet.

On the flop you have to push all-in. He could have many hands you beat and just be doing a continuation bet with missed overs. Any raise you do on the flop leaves you crippled if you fold afterwards, so pushing is the only way to go.

[tommyhawk]

[shoesnatcher]

Thanks for all the points of view, guess I should be folding these preflop for 4x BB. Thanks all for your input, I must learn to control my donkey instincts with middle pairs.

Shoesnatcher

[Kuso]

[Drade]

I think another consideration is where the blind level is and when it will be going up next. If you just hit 25/50 folding is much more viable. If you're almost up to the next level, I think playing the hand out is better. I personally prefer calling just slightly more than folding, with either being a much better alternative to raising. As for play of the hand, I agree with most others that when you raise the flop, you just need to push. Leaving yourself 500 behind is pointless and there's no way you can fold with so many of your chips in the pot, so just push.

In this instance, before you decide to play the hand, I think you have to commit yourself to possibly going broke if you get a favorable flop. In this instance, you have to know that the pre-flop raiser is going to continuation bet the flop essentially all the time, whether it's hit them or not. Knowing the raiser may have a better PP, If you get a good flop (all unders, or 10 10 4 or something) I think you have to commit the rest of your chips, and if you're beat, so be it. If you're not comfortable with this then you should lean more towards folding pre-flop.