First time Omaha - Mad poker skills or luck sack?

[Stoneburg]

Ok so this is the first time I'm playing PLO. Actually I think I may have tried it for 5 minutes a year ago but this is the first real time.

I'm going to guess that compared to an average first timer I know a bit. I've read the Omaha chapter in SS2 and the "How Good is your PLO" book at least. Still nothing beats experience and though I have a grasp of the basic concepts, starting hands, position, drawing to the nuts etc, I'm still a freaking newbie with loads and loads to learn.


After 161 hands of PLO $25 here are my stats:

Vpip: 29% (Oops, maybe I don't know so much about hand selection after all)
Vol SB: 28% (that's more like it)
Won wsf: 31,6%
Went to SD: 22,8%
Won SD: 53,9% (decent-ish?)

Aggression:
Pfr: 0,6% (this means *once*, with AA75 otb)
Flop: 1,1
Turn: 3 (I did some sponging agains the habitual bluffers)
River: 1

BB/100: 187,9 (I expect this to be completely sustainable, in fact I am aiming for an even 200)


On to the (horribly misplayed?) hands... (this time with titles!)


What do you mean "suck out"?!

Dealt to HERO
acekingsley folds.
GARYHAMMER1 calls [$0.25].
honuhonu13 checks.
snejkpliskin calls [$0.25].
simone4254 folds.
bragrabe folds.
Sunshine454 checks.
TBizznil calls [$0.25].
HERO calls [$0.15].
mreger checks.

** Dealing Flop **
HERO checks.
mreger checks.
GARYHAMMER1 checks.
honuhonu13 checks.
snejkpliskin checks.
Sunshine454 checks.
TBizznil checks.

** Dealing Turn **
HERO checks.
mreger checks.
GARYHAMMER1 bets [$1.70].
honuhonu13 folds.
snejkpliskin raises [$6.80].
Sunshine454 folds.
TBizznil calls [$6.80].
HERO is all-In [$24.50]
mreger folds.
GARYHAMMER1 calls [$22.80].
snejkpliskin folds.
TBizznil folds.

** Dealing River **

HERO shows a full house, Tens full of jacks.
GARYHAMMER1 shows a straight, nine to king.
HERO wins $61.35 from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of jacks.

Ok ok, here's my thinking. I don't bet it because the KQ straight just got there. When it gets back to me I know one of them or both have the straight, but I'm also sure nobody has JJ so in effect I have top set now. I also have the gutshot out which can either give me a split or actually scoop it. I don't want to *call* because I'll have to call an all-in then, or if the bettor just call I'll have to check/fold the river if I miss and may not get paid if I hit. So... I figure that "snejk" isn't going to fold either and with 3 people all-in my odds have to be decent? How wrong am I here? How can snejk fold?! (Guess if I got yelled at. My response: "Sorry if I did something wrong, it's my first time playing")


The shot in the gut

Seat 1: TBizznil ( $64.80 )
Seat 8: simone4254 ( $65.55 )
Seat 9: bragrabe ( $31.97 )
Seat 2: HERO ( $70.45 )
Seat 3: mreger ( $24.85 )
Seat 4: acekingsley ( $26.10 )
Seat 7: snejkpliskin ( $25.10 )
Seat 6: honuhonu13 ( $52.30 )
Seat 5: praappana ( $9.50 )

Dealt to HERO
honuhonu13 folds.
snejkpliskin raises [$0.85].
simone4254 calls [$0.85].
bragrabe calls [$0.85].
TBizznil calls [$0.85].
HERO calls [$0.85].
mreger folds.
acekingsley folds.
praappana calls [$0.60].

** Dealing Flop **
praappana bets [$1].
snejkpliskin calls [$1].
simone4254 folds.
bragrabe calls [$1].
TBizznil calls [$1].
HERO calls [$1].

** Dealing Turn **
praappana checks.
snejkpliskin checks.
bragrabe checks.
TBizznil checks.
HERO bets [$9.70].
praappana is all-In [$7.65]
snejkpliskin folds.
bragrabe folds.
TBizznil calls [$9.70].

** Dealing River **
TBizznil checks.
HERO bets [$10].
TBizznil folds.
HERO shows a straight, two to six.
praappana doesn't show two pairs, queens and twos.
HERO wins $13.90 from side pot #1 with a straight, two to six.
HERO wins $31.50 from the main pot with a straight, two to six.

Flop: Hmm.. how many outs is a gutshot and backdoor straight draw again?
Turn: Come to papa!

Seriously, is it Ok to peel here considering implied odds and the sneakiness of my hand?


The monster

Seat 2: HERO ( $94.20 )
Seat 3: mreger ( $24.25 )
Seat 4: acekingsley ( $24.25 )
Seat 7: snejkpliskin ( $19.40 )
Seat 6: honuhonu13 ( $142.37 )
Seat 5: praappana ( $13 )
Seat 10: ezincville ( $23.15 )
Seat 9: wrg813 ( $29.70 )
Seat 1: akathea ( $22.87 )
Seat 8: crazywudsl ( $24.75 )

Dealt to HERO
crazywudsl folds.
wrg813 folds.
ezincville folds.
akathea folds.
HERO calls [$0.25].
mreger folds.
acekingsley folds.
praappana raises [$1.10].
honuhonu13 calls [$1].
snejkpliskin calls [$0.85].
HERO calls [$0.85].
** Dealing Flop **
honuhonu13 checks.
snejkpliskin checks.
HERO bets [$4].
praappana folds.
honuhonu13 calls [$4].
snejkpliskin calls [$4].
** Dealing Turn **
honuhonu13 checks.
snejkpliskin checks.
HERO bets [$15.60].
honuhonu13 calls [$15.60].
snejkpliskin folds.
** Dealing River **
honuhonu13 checks.
HERO bets [$25].
honuhonu13 raises [$120.25].
HERO: quadds for real? That sucks
HERO is all-In [$48.50]
honuhonu13 shows a full house, Queens full of nines.
HERO shows a full house, Kings full of queens.
honuhonu13 wins $46.75 from side pot #1 with a full house, Queens full of nines.
HERO wins $191.60 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of queens.

When he C/R:d all-in I almost pooped myself. Took me like 20 sec to call. I wasn't slow rolling, I really thought he had QQ! A bit earlier I had told myself "Don't get your stack in against him without the nuts". Well I finally figured the 2:nd nuts were good enough.



The f-ckup

Dealt to HERO
TaliChicano raises [$0.85].
Kasa12066 calls [$0.85].
mreger folds.
combine1 folds.
HERO calls [$0.85].
acekingsley folds.
Mariah88 folds.
G_M_Y_F_M folds.
the_Giesse folds.
** Dealing Flop **
TaliChicano bets [$2.80].
Kasa12066 calls [$2.80].
>You have options at Table 66471 Table!.
HERO calls [$2.80].
** Dealing Turn **
TaliChicano bets [$10.75].
Kasa12066 calls [$10.75].
HERO folds.
** Dealing River **
TaliChicano is all-In [$5.05]
Kasa12066 calls [$5.05].
TaliChicano shows two pairs, kings and jacks.
Kasa12066 shows four of a kind, jacks.
Kasa12066 wins $40.80 from the main pot with four of a kind, jacks.


I thought for ever before flat calling preflop. It went something like this:
Hmm.. he's probably got AA too raisng in EP. Probably not as pretty as mine though. But if I re-raise I give my hand away. This guy can NOT fold an overpair so the money will go in either way... if I can catch a T, straight or flush draw I will be freerolling. I'll just call and see. When the other guy flat calls I get really worried. Should I just dump it there? When he "calls" off half his stack on the turn I think that just screams "call me!" so I fold. I really, really should have re-raised preflop because the other muppet would have pushed and I had been able to get my stack in. Right?

[Kuso]

[Stoneburg]

[Kuso]

hand 1

omg... lucksack. can't really say you had the odds for that one.

hand 2

yeah... great implied odds on a rainbow flop... great. you still got lucky.

hand 3

hhmm... this is a style thing. i'd be tempted to bet smaller on the turn to control the pot size -- the nut str8 will CR you for a monster pot. the non-nut str8 will probably see your bet as a milking bet and just call. the river... that guy's a clown. again, you're lucky that he had a HUGE stack and would make such a donkey move. also, don't fear quads over top boat. it'll happen, you'll miss too many bets if you fear that monster under the bed.

hand 4

good lay down on the turn.

as for pf, i think you need to decide whether you're going to be a pf player or not in plo. you can't really just raise with aces, as it defines your hand too well. as such, you'll need to decide what hands and what positions you will raise with.

this has been discussed in another thread, so i won't rehash here, but given that you hadn't been a pf raiser so far, i'd just leave it that way for this hand. if you decide to make the shift, be consistent with your plan.


anyway, nice session.


[edited for spelling]

[briachek]

Hand 1 - yeah, you should know not to continue there as someone has the straight and you don't have the odds.

Hand 2 - fold preflop but once you see the flop and you close the action, i don't mind taking one off but you are drawing slim. don't get too caught up in chasing.

Hand 3 - I agree with kuso that i might slow down on the turn but not necessarily. This is read dependent on how likely he will check raise you. I don't mind the full pot bet and that river was sweet.

Hand 4 - I don't raise preflop unless i can get a good chunk in and you don't have that there so i just call. On the flop, fold it as the Jack is there too many times for you to call after a bettor and a caller. There is no draw there so 1 has the jack.

[Stoneburg]

#1 - The suck out

Didn't know it was such a bad move. I figured that as long as the third guy called the all-in (which I can't believe he didn't) my equity would be OK. 10 outs for boat/quads and 2-3 for the gut shot (depending on whether he has the FD or not). 12-13 outs I figured would give me 30% to win and that's pretty much what I was putting in... assuming he called. I counted it and it turns out I only have 27% and not all of those outs are clean so in hindsight this was a pretty -EV move. Still, is it a HUGE mistake or just a mistake?


#2 - The gut shot

Yeah it's not like I make a habit of chasing gutshots, I promise you. But the pot is laying me 1:9.20, I just can't say no to that when I am closing the betting.

Looking at the AJ43 I don't see how I call that preflop though. I don't call a raise with that in LO8 ffs... The raiser was 12% pfr though, and I had position with a bunch of callers infront of me. Guess a suited Ace, a high card and two small connecters started to look good. I folded a lot better hands to raises before and after that.


#3 - The Monster

I was really ambivalent about betting that turn. My read told me I was up against a flush draw and/or a lower set, still I was nervous as hell about getting check/raised by the huge stack. Finally I just figured I can't give a free card to the flush and he WILL pay full pot to chase it. River I just make a valuebet. I don't know if I should be betting pot more on the river, I figure I bet pot on the other streets (never bet anything less) to make draws pay and to disguise my hand, on the river I just try to figure out how much money he will call with a second best hand.


#4 - The f-ckup

Exmtremely good point about the flop being draw free. Really, what could he be calling with other than a Jack (well.. quads obviously)? The bettor I don't worry about, I think he has AA/KK there but the caller just has to have it. By the way, won't a preflop raiser with AA bet there normally?



Regarding preflop. I guess at the moment I am a no-raise player but I doubt that is optimal. But since I am new at the game I don't want to escalate things when I don't know what I am doing. My strategy before playing was to see a flop with quality hands and only stay in if I had a strong hand, and fold anything but the nuts if people show strength.

Of course I ended up bluffing and sponging anyway... I think this was an effect of only playing two tables. I notices my reads were much better, and at a game I barely know, than what I am used to. Got me wondering if I am giving up value by 4-tabling other games. Anyway this gave me some good opportunities to steal some pots and was a lot of fun.

To be honest I enjoyed this game more than I have ever enjoyed Texas or O8, too bad it's so damn hard to learn!

[kdiddy33]

I used to play NLHE all the time before I read SS2 and started playing PLO and PLO8 (and fixed O8) for that matter about 6-9 months ago. Now I only play NLHE every now and again to maintain the skills, but I normally fire up the PLO and PLO8 cash games.

I think good poker skills in these games make for easier money than they do in NLHE. I play quite a bit now, and I have become quite good at reading players hands, etc. Things become more obvious after a while.

[briachek]

hand 1 - If you really want to continue that much, why not just call the turn instead of raising. If they have the straight, you get to draw cheaper as it might not be raised behind you and unless someone is a complete moron, no one is gonna call your push without the straight. Raising scares away extra dead money and makes you up against the straights only. Still, I fold it because I don't want all my money in like that (i like low variance) and it will often get reraised after you call.

I don't raise preflop and I prefer to look for good flops and play after that. It works for me. If you are gonna raise, you need to do a wide variety of hands or people will be able to peg you on hands so they will only likely play later if they beat your likely aces and such.

Often AAxx will not cb on a JJx board because someone calling the raise so often has the J. Even someone raising pf will have a J as its a common component of a raising hand. Depends on how aggressive the player is.

[Felonius_Monk]

[Rhound50]