CBs in Omaha

[Aisthesis]

I guess first a little background here:

When I started out (just a few weeks ago), I wasn't raising at all, just being a little more picky about calling raises. I was also playing lower levels and just doing a "pot it on the nuts" strategy, which seems to me to work quite well against bad players. I'm now trying to play the $100 game on Stars a bit, where the players (by my standards) seem at least noticeably better--some seem actually good and most at least aren't complete idiots who'll call you down with absurd holdings. So, I've also been working on the value of non-nut hands and still don't have a completely good feel on that one.

Ok, then there was this workshop 2 weeks ago with Berry Johnston and Scotty Nguyen. Well, one of Scotty's first Omaha examples was introduced by: "What do you do with AA72 UTG?" Correct answer, which immediately made sense to me: You limp and if someone raises, you pot it. Sounds logical to me.

Then there was a pretty big Omaha tournament, where I didn't play but took the opportunity to watch Scotty Nguyen (who obviously didn't take it very seriously since it wasn't for $1 million) and Berry Johnston (who did seem to take it seriously but just played solid by the appearance of things) play.

Well, there was an interesting hand in which neither of the celebrities was involved, where I noticed a guy limp-CALL with AA for about one third of his stack. As the course of events showed, this was a huge mistake, because then the raiser in LP, who had the initiative, was able to take it down with a pot-sized bet. So, my conclusion from that was that, if you have the opportunity to re-raise AA and narrow the field WAY down, then you simply must do so. In this case, I feel like the AA I saw probably laid down a split pot (as he almost had to do at that point) by failing to push PF.

I'm sure there are other hands, particularly against good players (89JT seems like the first candidate) that you have to raise, but, for the moment, I'm just thinking AA.

Ok, so just now I had AA in SB at a .50/1 table, and the guy 2 seats to my right (LP) pots it with 2 limpers before that. Here I re-potted to I think $17, limpers fold, raiser calls (he say he had KKQQ double-suited, which makes sense).

Well, the flop also came great for me, although I think I played it poorly: A63 with two spades. I checked it hoping that the other guy would take a stab, which he didn't. But actually, those spades were bad for me and giving the free card was a serious mistake, I think. Turn was another 6. I bet half pot, and he folded. So, all went well.

But my question is then this: Let's say you raise (I'm just going to take AA for the moment, as I don't feel comfortable yet raising other hands and my raise has the intention of shutting everything down completely--hence, I don't NECESSARILY raise AA either) your AA, and get it HU. How do you now deal with your CB?

Automatically half pot or something like that? Automatically pot it? Half pot seems a lot more flexible to me anyway. If you get action, you presumably have to start thinking about what this player might otherwise have--I'd assume that big pairs (QQ up and high straights 789T, 89TJ) are really about the only things that one SHOULD be calling a huge PF raise with anyway. But you may also have the flush draw on one of your aces, may hit top set. They may also hit 2 pair on a board like JTrag, in which case you can't really call a pot-sized raise.

Also, let's say you get 2 callers rather than HU. How does that change things? Is it still possible to make a CB without hitting top set or flush draw? 3-way I'd just have to assume that AA alone is almost worthless on most boards... ??

[Kuso]

interesting post, aisthesis (as usual for you).

if i am not mistaken, the idea behind raising AA pf is for two reasons:

1) to take the pot down or get it HU.

2) to get at least 1/3 of the smaller of your stack or villain's stack in the middle so that you can CB all-in on the flop.

the reason for this is that AA is usually WAY ahead of most holdings pf (rare in omaha, but this is one of those rarities) AND you typically have substantial fold equity pf and on the flop.


as for the CB... this is more difficult. the fact is that a player can bet on the flop with any four cards and take it down. whether it's a CB or not is irrelevant. this is especially true HU.

for example, let's say you pfr a lot of hands (so i don't know for sure that pfr = AA), and you pfr the pot OTB -- in this case with AA. everyone folds to me, and i close the action oop in the cutoff. i call.

when the flop comes rags, if i bet out, what do you do? do you really want to take it to to the mat with a naked AA? i've shown no fear of your aggression, so i must have something... right?

i make this play sometimes if i think pf raiser has AA and can lay it down to a coordinated board regardless of whether it hit me or not. that being said, some clowns will play AA to the felt regardless of how the board reads. these guys have padded my BR nicely when i actually do have a hand like top set, but it's cavalier to try to push them off their beloved AA.

[Aisthesis]

All makes a LOT of sense, which is also why I didn't raise at all myself for quite a while in Omaha.

In the sample hand I had, let's say it gets HU and the flop comes Q63 or something. I'm out of position, have $17 in the pot with $100 in stack-depth. Well, if I bet $20 into a $34 pot and my opponent pots (as he would have with his KKQQ on that board presumably), I definitely need to go away.

At the moment, I'm really just trying to get the hang of raising starting just with AA. I feel like, for more advanced play anyway, if you raise AA, you presumably need to raise 89TJ for sure, probably also a few similar wraps as well as maybe KK/QQ if they have some extra features (like KKQJ or KQQJ maybe, also the other guy's KKQQ double-suited certainly doesn't look like a bad hand to me). Anyhow, if you raise that range, get a HU pot (and I think raising in EP is completely pointless because you just can't narrow the field at all), then it's at least very dangerous for an opponent to hammer you without a hand.

But I guess one important aspect of the whole raising thing: I hate getting in quite a bit of stack (such as the $17 in the $100 game), then just checking unless I hit something pretty strong.

Wouldn't accurate play run something like this: Make your raise, bet half the pot. If opponent then really pots it and has some degree of credibility, then re-examine your holdings.

The problem with raising in general is that every flop is potentially rather scary in Omaha.

I guess the wider your raising range of good hands is, the riskier it is for opponents to take a stab at your CB--but I really don't know whether a wrap like 6789 is sufficient to want to make a big raise with... possibly against very good players with a pretty wide range of raising hands themselves?

[Aisthesis]

kuso (or anyone else): I see what you're getting at in terms of ways to trap AA, and it makes definite sense--also a reason why I think raising only makes sense under 2 conditions (barring just bluff raises, which isn't really an issue yet, for me anyway): 1) You have a very strong hand (just which ones is definitely open), 2) You can get a very big chunk of stack in PF (ideally I'd say half of stack, altho that's REALLY hard--then I'll gladly shove the rest in with AA).

But I still don't understand how to deal with the CB here. Seems like a good idea to me, but I guess you also have to know your opponent. Also checking it down (or check-calling may have some potential, depending on how stealy your opponent is).

And on your sample hand, kuso: Ok, if I'm understanding you right, you have AA in CO and limp (not a bad idea, I think, at least at the tables I've been watching because even if you can pot it to $6 or $7 at a .50/1 table, it doesn't scare enough people off).

So, now button raises, and your plan is to check-call, then pot the flop. Well, if it's HU, ok, I like. Puts a lot of pressure on a split pot hand against a tight raiser.

But if you have 3 or 4 still in the hand, I also very much like using your AA for an exclusionary re-raise. Say (again, I'll just assume .50/1) you have a button raise to $3 and then 3 callers to you. Well, now you can pot it to something like $18, and that's a raise that probably will get the field thinned pretty much. Moreover, if you frequently then stab at the pot with a pot-sized bet on your AA, with so many players in the hand, I'd say there's a high risk of having someone check-raise you with a (now winning) hand you might have gotten out of there with a re-raise.

My problem now is that we've got a $36 pot, and let's say button flat calls. It's not clear how to proceed here barring an A-high flop, which one can't assume. What at least "feels" to me like the right play would be to hit it for $20 on almost any board, then see how your opponent reacts. Just as note: I also think suited boards are LESS dangerous in Omaha than in HE, at least HU, because one card to the flush isn't going to do the trick. Very dangerous after that action would be a K-high board or a board like 678 or 789, actually almost any board containing middle semi-connectors (89, 79, etc.).

Anyhow, I guess to pose the question in its simplest form: If you DO get it HU with your raise, is a roughly half pot CB a pretty good standard play?

[Rhound50]

[Kuso]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Kuso]

[Yearning]

[GooperMC]

CB == continuation bet
CS == calling station.

and RHound no comments about the double =