Axxx suited Argument

[starstealer]

Here's a twister for everyone. This argument was presented to me as a reasonable course of action. I'm not going to present my feelings on the matter yet - but please let me know what you think:

In Limit Hold'em, Axs is a playable hand in LP with 3-4 callers. In most cases, you are looking for either 2 pair or a flush draw on the flop to continue. The pot odds in this case, in addition to potential implied odds of hitting your hand are large enough to have a +EV.

In Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, Axxxs is playable for the same reason in LP with 6+ callers. Loose Omaha games can often have enough people to make the hand possible. In this case, you are looking for just the flush draw to continue.

Agreement? Dissent? (For the record my opinion will be posted very shortly - so if you want to not read it - post first; if you do want to read it - please continue on to the next few posts).

/d

[Felonius_Monk]

Without thinking about it too deeply, I think I would rather see at least something else. With 6 callers something like a broadway pair or another low card (maybe not a 5) would be adequate to consider it.

Monk
xxxxx

[starstealer]

This was the argument presented to me - as long as there are enough callers - playing Axxxs is reasonable because you are drawing to the same hand - and the only difference is that you have 2 additional cards to make the hand (which improves your odds slightly - less unknown cards).

I disagree with his assessment, and here's my presentation of why:

1. In Hold'em, you are drawing to a flush (draw) or two pair. You will need to hit two cards of an 11-card draw or two cards of a six card draw to continue in most places.

2. In Hold'em, if you hit your flush and later the board pairs - you have little need to worry about boats because most sets or two pairs would have folded already to the flush board.

3. In Hold'em, if you hit your two pair, and later the board straightens or flushes out - you have some concern about straights/flushes - but can sometimes continue if the pot size is large enough.

4. In Omaha Hi/Lo - you are drawing only to the flush. Two pair is often not enough to make the winning hand on the river. In order to draw to the flush, you will need to hit two cards of an 11-card draw.

5. In Omaha Hi/Lo - you are splitting the pot with others some of the time (with the low hand, if one hits).

6. In Omaha Hi/Lo - if the board pairs - you are in tough shape because a boat is a fair likelihood - especially when there are the requisite number of preflop players (6+).

The person who presented the argument to me didn't want to hear that he was in error - so I decided I would present the argument here and see what people thought. His argument, unmodified, was that he would only need 3 limpers preflop - which I've obviously modified...

/d

[starstealer]

One last thing I wanted to mention was discipline. In this type of argument, I always follow it up with some case examples. He said that it just requires some discipline to fold the hand if you are going to play it:

1. A47K with the seven suited to the Ace on the button. 7 Callers and the flop is 49Q with two of your suit. (okay - that's about as good as it gets for your type of hand.)

2. AKQJ with the king suited to the ace on the button. 6 callers and the flop is 234 with two of your suit. (this is probably one of the worst case scenarios).

(According to his argument, as long as you have "pot odds" to draw to your flush - then the 234 with two of your suit is good)

Okay now make the flop capped to you - yes you are getting pot odds - but you are going to have large variance. On the turn the board pairs, but you make your flush - capped again?