Overaggressive or standard?

[briachek]

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
8 players


Stack sizes:
UTG: $233.85
Hero: $98.50
MP1: $93.50
MP2: $336.35
CO: $114
Button: $81.30
SB: $108.90
BB: $41

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with
UTG folds, Hero calls $1, MP1 raises to $3, 3 folds, SB raises to $11.5, BB folds, Hero raises to $38, MP1 folds, SB calls $26.

Flop: ($80, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero is all-in $61.5

Still working on this whole AA thing. Decent enough connectors and single suited. Too much or acceptable risk? I really don't like that flop but without a set, JT or diamonds, he can't call right?

[Rhound50]

Once you raise this preflop you have 40% of your stack already in the pot, any decent flop I think you push, this a a pretty safe flop you probably are only going to get called by QQ. Thought you may still get a call from someone with a big rap KQJ10 or something in that range.

[Aisthesis]

Yeah, this AA thing is giving me major headaches as well (right now, AA is my biggest loser--in part due to a flopped set where I justifiably played for stack but got flushed, but also in part due to overplaying the overpair).

Anyhow, as a result of this, I stopped re-raising for a while, but I didn't really like that either, although my current attitude is to re-raise only the crappiest AA hands as well as big wraps and double big pairs--not sure about that one either, though.

In any case, I don't think re-raising can be a mistake with AA.

Ok, so now you have it HU. Well, I tried just checking it down without improvement and got into trouble with that. So, my current revised version, which seems to be working but is still very much a work in progress, is to make about a 1/3 pot CB pretty routinely to see where I'm at.

It's a pretty small bet (but, hey, AA is only a 60-40 favorite over a LOT of hands), but it's enough that they'll generally fold crap, and if they just flat call, you can also get a feel for what they might have.

I had one just now where I did that, got a flop caller, then the guy potted a blank turn in a $100 stack ($200 game). I re-raised him and was indeed ahead. But I felt like he was trying to put a play on my AA, and he was.

The thing about potting it is that you really only get a caller here from a hand that's ahead or favorite from behind, and that just happens way too often.

Anyhow, I think I would have made it $25 or so in this situation. If he comes over the top, you then just have to determine whether you're beat or whether he's making a play at you... Even $20 might be enough here.

[briachek]

[Aisthesis]

I guess perhaps it's all about reading boards in this situation. Your Ad helps you, and you will get a fair amount of folds.

While I also see people calling re-raises with very strange hands, let's consider which ones actually SHOULD consider calling that: Split pot with AA should come over the top, really (imo), although might want to take away from you a split pot. Strong KK, strong QQ, very strong JJ (maybe KQJJds or JJTTds or QJJT), wraps. As I say, I've seen a lot of callers with less, but those are imo reasonable to play to the re-raise.

Ok, if you're going to re-raise and then pot it, you're risking $100 when you lose for a gain of $38 when you win. Hence, just to break even, you need to win about 2.5 times for every time you lose.

Now, a hand like KKJJ lays down. QJT9 calls, and you're way behind. JT98 calls (?) and is presumably ahead (outs: anything 7 through K except a 9 or a Q). T987 calls and is about the same. 9876 is already clearly ahead. 8765 can probably only call with 2 diamonds. 4567 is probably a little thin for calling the re-raise in the first place and certainly folds. Any QQ or 99 (KK99 isn't all that bad for calling the re-raise either) clearly calls and is way ahead. Admittedly, all of the wraps are weakened if they don't have diamonds, but I think the ones already including 2 pair simply MUST call even without diamonds.

While players do make a lot of bad calls to the re-raise, I don't think you can win this 2.5 times for every time you make that play on this board--IF they're calling with truly premium hands.

I guess that pretty much sums up the AA dilemma. I'm not sure how to deal with it and am still convinced that the re-raise can't be a mistake.

I am currently inclined to re-raise only the junkier AA hands, although arguments could be made for quite the reverse (re-raising the really strong ones). But, if you have any AAds, I am at least inclined to think that you hit enough flops to make it more advantageous to just see the flop along with a bunch of others in a raised pot rather than to thin the field further. You have top set possibilities with some deception, and you have 2 flush draws. With a junky AA, you just have top set against a large field.

I think I'll post a couple of mine in a separate thread, also to illustrate the whole problem.

[briachek]

i don't like the theory of pushing junky AA hands rather that decent and very good AA hands because if you do get called, you likely have nothing. I'm only raising when i can get at least 1/3 a stack in so i can push the flop if i want. With a junky AA hand, you are gonna rarely want to push a flop since you likely didn't hit anything to go with your AA while with better ones, you might have hit something. I do see your point with good AA hands wanting to see a flop and play it from there which is why i don't raise preflop as that's my stance on pretty much all playable hands since its a postflop game. It also makes the check raise much more vital.

[Aisthesis]

[briachek]

[Aisthesis]

No, actually that's NOT the idea at all. That's the worst situation you can be in imo.

I think you want to either be all-in PF or to have maybe 10% of your stack committed. Otherwise, it puts you in a serious mess.

I don't think you can make just a general EV calculation in Omaha (or, maybe, with some kind of huge computer simulation), but I did make one for that particular board on hands where I think calling the re-raise is reasonable.

[Felonius_Monk]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Felonius_Monk]

[Aisthesis]

Well, this discussion is still very hazy to me.

What I really see here is just an argument for not re-raising AA. If that's the conclusion, then I can live with it--misses an occasional opportunity but also avoids some major difficulties.

Anyhow, on the one hand, you're making a big argument for calling the re-raise with a very wide range of hands and show that it's going to be -EV for AA.

On the other hand, you want AA to risk full stack... ??

On the small bet, anyway, I don't think it necessarily has to mean that you're prepared to lay down. It's just testing to see how hard they hit. If you pot it every time on your re-raised AA, it's at least clear to me that that is a losing strategy.

Anyhow, one can also construct various board here where the whole thing becomes less difficult--like K72 rainbow. Ok, there are no draws, either someone hit with their KK or 77 or they didn't. That seems to me more like a "potting board" because AA should be ahead most of the time (and few will call with just any pair, although it may actually be the best play). On the Q96 board, almost every drawing hand has hit something.

In re-raise pots at the 1/2, I see almost everyone potting it as CB, but I'm very skeptical that this is any kind of winning strategy.

Monk, when, if ever, DO you re-raise? And, if you re-raise, do you always pot it as CB?

[Felonius_Monk]